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[Why I Am Catholic]: Because I Love the Bible [Catholic and Open]
Patheos.comYIMCatholic ^ | August 30, 2010 | Frank Weathers

Posted on 04/16/2012 4:21:51 PM PDT by Salvation

Because I Love the Bible

Posted on by Frank Weathers
 

Here is a reason that answers the question posed by this blog daily that I’ve never written about yet. So here goes: I love the Bible. Well, duh, Frank you may be thinking, of course you do. Well, let me be more specific. I love the entire Bible and every single book therein, including all the books that Martin Luther tossed out during the Protestant Reformation.

I have some mechanical ability, which I have written about in this space once or twice. And I know a thing or two about removing parts from a motor, or adding them, for example. To make a long story short, you don’t remove parts from an engine, leave them off, and expect the motor to work. Remove a turbocharger from a diesel engine, for example, and you will have a motor than runs, but it will run like a sick dog with absolutely no torque. What’s the point of that?

Of course, the other possibility is that you can add parts to a motor in an effort to make it stronger. “Soup it up,” so to speak. Usually this results in some additional power and fun, but at the expense of the longevity of the motor. In other words, you might make more power, but you will probably wind up grenading the motor as well. Oops.

So when I was coming around to the idea of converting, see, I wanted to know what was the scoop on these “extra” books in the Bible. Like a mechanic, I was wondering if the Catholic Church had decided to throw some aftermarket parts onto the motor, if you follow me. You know, like adding a supercharger to a motor that was already strong.

So I grabbed my souvenir Catholic Bible, from my first failed attempt at RCIA class,  and I started looking at these mysterious books. As a result, I discovered some wonderful passages from books that were in the Bible that I had never heard of. Like the one from the first reading from Mass yesterday:

Sirach 3:17-18, 20, 28-29

My child, conduct your affairs with humility, and you will be loved more than a giver of gifts. Humble yourself the more, the greater you are, and you will find favor with God. What is too sublime for you, seek not, into things beyond your strength, search not. The mind of a sage appreciates proverbs, and an attentive ear is the joy of the wise. Water quenches a flaming fire, and alms atone for sins.

Um, not very scary, is it? As a matter of fact, don’t those verses make all kinds of sense? And there are 50 more chapters of this book to sink your teeth into.  Then I found these verses from the first chapter of the book entitled Wisdom,

Love justice, you who judge the earth; think of the LORD in goodness, and seek him in integrity of heart; because he is found by those who test him not, and he manifests himself to those who do not disbelieve him. For perverse counsels separate a man from God, and his power, put to the proof, rebukes the foolhardy; because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin. For the holy spirit of discipline flees deceit and withdraws from senseless counsels; and when injustice occurs it is rebuked.

Wow, I thought. Seek the Lord,  just like it says in Psalm 105, but with a twist for clarity.

For wisdom is a kindly spirit, yet she acquits not the blasphemer of his guilty lips; because God is the witness of his inmost self and the sure observer of his heart and the listener to his tongue. For the spirit of the LORD fills the world, is all-embracing, and knows what man says. Therefore no one who utters wicked things can go unnoticed, nor will chastising condemnation pass him by.

Of course! God knows all, sees all. GPS has got nothing on God. It says so right there in 1 Samuel 16:7.

For the devices of the wicked man shall be scrutinized, and the sound of his words shall reach the LORD, for the chastisement of his transgressions; because a jealous ear hearkens to everything, and discordant grumblings are no secret. Therefore guard against profitless grumbling, and from calumny withhold your tongues; for a stealthy utterance does not go unpunished, and a lying mouth slays the soul.

Again, there is nothing strange here. There was a lot of “grumbling” going on in Numbers(14:27), for example, remember? And the command to not lie? That’s right there in the Ten Commandments.

Court not death by your erring way of life, nor draw to yourselves destruction by the works of your hands. Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living. For he fashioned all things that they might have being; and the creatures of the world are wholesome, and there is not a destructive drug among them nor any domain of the nether world on earth, for justice is undying.

I remember clearly thinking to myself after reading this particular passage, “where has this book been all my life?” No wonder I feel immortal, because, gulp (!) I was created to be immortal.  And then I realized there are 18 more chapters in this book too?

And so it goes, as I explored, and continue to marvel at, the wonders of Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, and 1 & 2 Maccabees. The passage in the New Testament that sealed the deal for me was when these verses in Hebrews chapter 11:32-35,

What more shall I say? I have not time to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, did what was righteous, obtained the promises; they closed the mouths of lions, put out raging fires, escaped the devouring sword; out of weakness they were made powerful, became strong in battle, and turned back foreign invaders. Women received back their dead through resurrection. Some were tortured and would not accept deliverance, in order to obtain a better resurrection.

Could only seem to be understood by referring to 2 Maccabees chapter 7:1, 13-14. Take a look,

It also happened that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king, to force them to eat pork in violation of God’s law.

After he had died, they tortured and maltreated the fourth brother in the same way. When he was near death, he said, “It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life.”

And then I learned that all of these books had been in the Bible since the beginning of Christianity. They had been in the Old Testament, but got tossed when Luther decided to toss them. At this point, I had to concede three things. 1) I’m not a biblical scholar; 2) The Catholic Church, the institution that assembled the Bible, is the Authority, and further, it has the Authority to decide what books belong in the Bible and what books don’t; 3) These allegedly disputed books were in the Septuagint, which happened to be the authoritative Old Testament Canon in place while Our Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth.

At Mass today, for example, the gospel reading is from Luke and begins like this,

Jesus came to Nazareth, where he had grown up, and went according to his custom into the synagogue on the sabbath day. He stood up to read and was handed a scroll of the prophet Isaiah.(Luke 4:16-17)

What the passage doesn’t say, of course, is that He could possibly, on a different day of the week, or on a different day of the liturgical calendar, have been handed a scroll from Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, or 1 & 2 Maccabees. These books were in the scrolls too, when God walked upon the earth. I don’t know for sure, but like I said, I’m not a biblical scholar. Which is why I rely, again, on the authority of the Church.

So the mechanic in me was left with only one question to consider. As a Christian, did I want to go along with a stripped version of the motor, the one missing a few parts, with all of the pitfalls associated with that, or go along with the original version of the motor; the one that has all of the original parts, all in the proper place.

It really was not a difficult choice to make for me. Especially after I learned that Luther didn’t like the book of James or Revelation either. Lucky us, he left those in because leaving those “parts” out would have been like forgetting the oil sump pump and the oil pan.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; septuagint
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To: Hacksaw

Sole authority?

The Mass composed of the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist has more Sacred Scripture in it that I have ever heard when attending a service of another denomination.

So why are you saying that Catholics don’t have Scripture — we do. We just don’t interpret to meet our own needs as you do. We accept and obey the interpretation of the Magisterium, Cathecism, priest, Bishop and Pope.


61 posted on 04/17/2012 5:26:26 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Hacksaw

Have you ever looked at a Roman Missal — the book the priest uses? It used to be called the Sacramentary. Nearly everything he says is noted from the Bible. book, chapter and verse.

If you have a friend, ask him or her to take you in to talk with a Catholic priest about all the Scripture in the Mass.


62 posted on 04/17/2012 5:28:56 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Biggirl
>>In the short term it takes place it does not seem good, but it is worked out to be good in the long term.<<

Not for the Romans, or for Judas, or for Satan for sure.

63 posted on 04/17/2012 6:29:35 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: smvoice

Once again you nailed smvoice.


64 posted on 04/17/2012 6:36:18 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: tiki

Plus also a lot of Protestants have come home to Rome.


65 posted on 04/17/2012 6:51:14 PM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: annalex
This indeed is unlikely as the readings at worship were done in Hebrew and from the Hebrew Bible. But the author admits not being a scholar right away.

Thank you. That was exactly my point. I wonder how many other people reading articles such as this do not know it either?

66 posted on 04/17/2012 7:41:31 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

The author was making a correct broader point: that the Septuagint was the source of inspirational reading for the 1 century Jews. He overshot it a little bit claiming that it was not only inspirational reading but liturgical reading.

Certainly low-church Protestants should not even notice the distinction because they have no liturgy.


67 posted on 04/18/2012 5:30:55 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Biggirl; CynicalBear; boatbums; metmom; RnMomof7; svcw; caww; smvoice

But that logic, since most of the Divine writings were established as Scripture before there ever was a church in Rome, and as unlike that entity, Scripture specifically states the Jews were the stewards of Holy Writ, (Rm. 3:2; 9:4) and to whom promises of perpetuation and guidance were given, then all should have submitted to them.

And as, like Rome, they presumed these promises and historical decent promised a level of veracity and perpetuation that forbid any dissent or replacement, thus they challenged the itinerant preacher from Nazareth, “By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?” (see Mk. 11:27-33)

To which the Lord required that they tell them by whose authority the Baptist acted, which they refused to answer on political grounds, though he also was rejected by them, as Rome rejects any who have not her sanction.

The transcendent issue is one of authority. Why would or should seekers of Truth follow this itinerant preacher from Nazareth who had not the sanction of the historical heavyweights and turned over the tables of their power?

The answer is that, in contrast to them, the Lord Jesus established His claims on Scripture, in word and in the manifest power of God it affirms, as did the apostles and early church. ( Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12)

And the most critical aspect of this basis of authority is that the of the gospel of grace, and manifest regeneration by repentant faith in it, and which kind of living effectual faith the church relies upon for its members and for storming the gates of Hell.

And which affirms that the church is that of the living God, (1Tim. 1:15) versus its institutionalized counterpart, Catholic or Protestant. “For the kingdom of God is not in word [self declaration], but in power, ” (1 Cori. 4:20) by “manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.” (2 Corinthians 4:2)


68 posted on 04/18/2012 8:13:25 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: Salvation; Colorado Cowgirl; CynicalBear; boatbums; metmom; RnMomof7; svcw; caww; smvoice

<James also tells us that faith without works is empty — nothing.<

And yet the Reformers preached strongly that the only a kind of faith which appropriates justification is one that will effect obedience toward its object: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Reformation_faith_works.html

Meanwhile, today it is RCs which come in near to last in commitment and upholding moral values in survey after survey: \http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html


69 posted on 04/18/2012 8:13:25 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: annalex; CynicalBear; boatbums; metmom; RnMomof7; svcw; caww; smvoice

<The modern Protestant translations are particularly awful.<

I also criticize them, but don’t forget your own official American Bible: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Ancients_on_Scripture.html#Remarks


70 posted on 04/18/2012 8:13:28 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: daniel1212; metmom; boatbums; CynicalBear; All

Heads up:...’Chuck Colson’ soon to be with the Lord:

It is with a heavy, but hopeful heart that I share with you that it appears our friend, brother and founder will soon be home with the Lord,” Jim Liske, CEO of Prison Fellowship Ministries, which Colson founded, said in a statement.
“Chuck’s condition took a decided turn yesterday, and the doctors advised Patty and the family to gather by his bedside,” Liske said, referring to Colson’s wife.

Colson, 80, underwent surgery this month to remove a pool of clotted blood on the surface of his brain.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/18/watergate-figure-chuck-colson-reportedly-near-death/?hpt=hp_t3


71 posted on 04/18/2012 10:43:28 AM PDT by caww
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To: SumProVita

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2872933/posts?page=71#71


72 posted on 04/18/2012 10:49:20 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: daniel1212

I can tell that you may not know that there are 22 churches within the Catholic Church.

When you use ‘RC’ it shows that you may not know all the other Catholic Churches. Do you?

The Latin Rite (or RC) as you put it does not speak for all Catholic Churches.


73 posted on 04/18/2012 10:52:50 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: daniel1212

Good post, daniel, authority is what this is all about. I just posted this on another thread about Constantine. He was the authority sitting upon his throne ruling over the Bishops at Nicea. Not exactly in the same vein as your post, but I think you can catch the drift:
............................

Catholics claim the church conquered the Roman Empire, but in reality the Roman Empire conquered the church - by making the church over into the image of the Roman Empire.

Beginning with Constantine, the church changed its nature, entered its great apostasy, became a political organization in the spirit and pattern of Imperial Rome, and took a nose-dive into a thousand years of Papal tyranny and abominations.

The Imperial Church became an entirely different institution from the persecuted church of the first centuries. In its ambition to rule and subjugate all to the Pope it became the persecutor.

Worship, at first very simple,was developed into elaborate, stately, imposing ceremonies having all the outward splendor that formerly belonged to pagan temples.

Ministers became priests. The term “priest”was not applied to Christian ministers before a.d.200. It was borrowed from the Jewish system, and from pagan priesthood. The Catholic priesthood eventually became celibate, forbidden to marry by the law of the Imperial Church.

Conversion of the pagan masses filled the church with all kinds of pagan practices and philosophies. Various Greek and Oriental philosophies became amalgamated with Christianity.

Was all this Constantine’s fault? Not really, he only did what Emperors normally do, he took charge. We have all the weak-backed compromising Bishops, who allowed Constantine to sit in the place of authority over them at Nicea, who sold out the true church to statism, transforming it into an Imperial church, to thank.


74 posted on 04/18/2012 11:02:25 AM PDT by sasportas
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To: Salvation; CynicalBear; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name; Quix; wmfights; ...

The statement was that “the RCC does not have scripture as its central authority,” which is a fact. Many of her teachings are from Tradition, and while she may invoke texts to support them (though rarely infallibly defining them), that is only an interpretation, and what gives their claims authority is not the weight of Scriptural warrant, but the premise that Rome is uniquely assuredly infallible (conditionally).

Thus as a another RC web apologist just told me, “We do not need to prove her perpetual virginity or anything else about her from Scripture.”

And while the RC has great liberty to interpret Scripture to support Rome (as they interpret her), and will use it as if it were the supreme authority, their goal is to bring one to provide implicit assent of faith in what the assuredly infallible magisterium states, (providing they know it has spoken infallibly, which can be a matter of interpretation).

And while RCs attack evangelicals as having no infallible interpreter of their supreme doctrinal authority, and making fallible decisions as to what to believe, the RC does not have an assuredly infallible interpreter of their supreme doctrinal authority, but has made a fallible decision to trust it.


75 posted on 04/18/2012 11:33:27 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: Salvation; boatbums; metmom; RnMomof7; svcw; caww; smvoice; CynicalBear
I can tell that you may not know that there are 22 churches within the Catholic Church.

When you use ‘RC’ it shows that you may not know all the other Catholic Churches. Do you?

The Latin Rite (or RC) as you put it does not speak for all Catholic Churches.

Thank you for confirming that (and your considerate manner), and while usually the use of “RC” is warranted as Roman Catholicism is what is being promoted in particular, and in order to especially distinguish between the EOs who dissent from things at issue, in this case i should have just used Catholics, as the surveys which the links reference do not all make that distinction.

However, as the percentage of of other Catholics in the US is very very small, it is justified to say that these stats are indicative what Roman Catholics attest to.

And I certainly did know there are other Catholic churches,








Sources: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2009/12/special-pleading-of-sola-ecclesia-ists.html (left) http://www.friesian.com/popes.htm#popes (right)





76 posted on 04/18/2012 11:36:03 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: sasportas
"I just posted this on another thread about Constantine."

And I just posted this in response:

Beginning with Constantine the Church was no longer an outlaw organization and being a member was no longer punishable by death. Changes like that tend to change public behaviors.

I never cease to be depressed when those who claim to be Christian see their fellow Christians as the source of all evil and a more worthy target for their hatred and vitriol than radical Islam, atheistic secularism, humanism, modernism, and Satanism. I pray that those who do and see differences in doctrine as somehow demonic and intentionally sinful as opposed to simple error. Those who hold those thoughts are demonstrably not Christians.

Jesus' repeated command to us is to love one another and the definition of love is the desire for good for the other simply for the sake of the other. If we only love those who love us or are like us it is not love but a form of egotism.

As St. Thomas Aquinas taught, the greatest love is found in the shared love a transcendental third thing. For example, we may both like each other based upon nothing more than a shared like of the same baseball or football team. The greater the love for that transcendental third, the greater the bond between us. Christian marriage needs to be based upon a greater love for the bond of marriage and the "us" formed than for the love of our spouse or self. If we both express the ultimate love for God, we should therefore have a love between us that transcends the differences of definition, doctrine and the punctuation in Koine Greek idioms that too many choose to divide us.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you." - John 15:12

77 posted on 04/18/2012 11:37:27 AM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: sasportas; metmom; boatbums

Thanks. Never saw you before in these exchanges. Member since 2003!

“But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. “ (Galatians 4:29)

Sadly, the use of physical force to conquer theological foes is something some of the early Reformers followed Rome in, and needed to unlearn.


78 posted on 04/18/2012 11:41:51 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: Salvation
We just don’t interpret to meet our own needs as you do

Where did you get that lie from ' meet the needs '? Who is deceiving you?

We accept and obey the interpretation of the Magisterium, Cathecism, priest, Bishop and Pope.

GOD'S OWN, HIS church, obey THE WORD, as revealed by The HOLY SPIRIT, NOT man, NEVER man! Satan uses man to deceive others, he can't use THE HOLY SPIRIT. God's Word is HOLY SPIRIT breathe, IT'S HIS WORD.

79 posted on 04/18/2012 11:43:12 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Natural Law
This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you

Love them enough to tell them the TRUTH.

GOD'S WORD ALONE REIGNS, JESUS IS THE WORD.

WHO would REJECT that love?

80 posted on 04/18/2012 11:50:44 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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