Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.

I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.

And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.

I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.

I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.

I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.

My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.

Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.

As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.

She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.

The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.

The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.

On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.

Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.

Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"

Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'

I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.

Well I would differ about what you know Boatbums...for I have learned much from your posts which send me to God's word for the confirmation which I might need on a given topic.

You can and do challenge ones beliefs and or clarify ones understanding...especially when the topics are controversial and there's a true debate occurring. More than once when you might be debating with another and I'm not certain what the truth is.....the very fact the debate is happening even has shown me there are things which I need to know that I don't!

As for Kenneth Copelands teachings on tongues proving one is saved...well that's nonsense...and further it certainly isn't a requirement as the “tongue movement” occurring in the churches today is a counterfeit. And yes I make that as a matter of fact statement if for no other reason then the great divisions it's created within the body of Christ is sufficient to determine so...however there are vastly more reasons in which one can make that determination as well.

I noticed somewhere someone referencing another destructive teacher...Bill Keller maybe if I recall correctly....but another who lives an elaborate lifestyle and makes all sorts of claims. Honestly these false teachers are multiplying rapidly because there's big money to be made in doing so as our nations people become more and more open to deception....and the desire by those who covet power, money and wealth, as well as the “glory” of having followers, becomes the way to succeed......interesting how many of these are former convicts. Should we be surprised?

I pray you never stop posting...same with metmom and cynical bear and smvoice and others who we all learn from. I wish I could remember all their names....and we know even those who post only on occasion can leave us with some pretty deep things to think about.

False teachers and their teachings have been accepted by a large segment of the Christian church who have 'rejected' the application of discernment in regards to teachers and leadership...so it is not uncommon for them to also become like their teachers who mingle falsehood with enough truth to make it palitable....and moreso excite them time and time again.

.....They have substituted "feel good", self-satisfying sermons, emotions and a search for the next spiritual "experience" as the criteria for acceptance into the Christian fellowship instead of Doctrine, as taught in the Bible and as being the measure of a leader or teacher.

As a result, these "Christians" neither know what is Biblically correct or how what is taught in the Bible applies to what they accept in their own lives...and as a result of this 'false teaching is the norm' instead of the exception.

It all comes back to having the next thrill or the next encounter....and if they aren't having them then they feed off those who are......and their leaders will with certainty provide this in order to keep their coffers flowing with cash.

Sounds like a cycle of addiction does it not?

As regards the latter, the characteristics which Paul taught would accompany the coming of that which is perfect (1Cor. 13:10-13) are not now yet fully realized, as despite a having wholly inspired revelation we still do not see face to face, but when the perfect revelation of Christ comes, then we shall know even as we are known.

I think if you look at I Corinthians 13 and Paul's statement in verses 9 and 10, he says, "For what we know is incomplete and what we prophesy is incomplete. But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with." (ISV). Other versions say, "but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.". It certainly speaks of our future in Heaven when we shall know as we are even known. Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary says:

All things are dark and confused now, compared with what they will be hereafter. They can only be seen as by the reflection in a mirror, or in the description of a riddle; but hereafter our knowledge will be free from all obscurity and error. It is the light of heaven only, that will remove all clouds and darkness that hide the face of God from us. To sum up the excellences of charity, it is preferred not only to gifts, but to other graces, to faith and hope. Faith fixes on the Divine revelation, and assents thereto, relying on the Divine Redeemer. Hope fastens on future happiness, and waits for that; but in heaven, faith will be swallowed up in actual sight, and hope in enjoyment. There is no room to believe and hope, when we see and enjoy. But there, love will be made perfect. There we shall perfectly love God. And there we shall perfectly love one another. Blessed state! how much surpassing the best below! God is love, 1Jo 4:8,16. Where God is to be seen as he is, and face to face, there charity is in its greatest height; there only will it be perfected.

But it is also speaking of the complete revelation of God. Supernatural prophets are not needed once God's revelation is complete. However, in verse 8, Paul says, "Love never fails. Now if there are prophecies, they will be done away with. If there are languages, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away with." (ISV) The God's Word Translation says it, "Love never comes to an end. There is the gift of speaking what God has revealed, but it will no longer be used. There is the gift of speaking in other languages, but it will stop by itself. There is the gift of knowledge, but it will no longer be used." I think the hangup is in thinking that all these things have to happen at the same time, which it doesn't say, or in thinking the meaning may only be speaking of one type as many Bible teachings do. In Barne's Notes on the Bible, he addresses the sense of these things ceasing to be useful, "The sense is, that while other endowments of the Holy Spirit must soon cease and he valueless, love would abide, and would always exist. The "argument" is, that we ought to seek that which is of enduring value; and that, therefore, love should be preferred to those endowments of the Spirit on which so high a value had been set by the Corinthians."

What is interesting is he goes on further to say:

There be tongues - The power of speaking foreign languages. They shall cease - Macknight supposes this means that they shall cease in the church after the gospel shall have been preached to all nations. But the more natural interpretation is, to refer it to the future life; since the main idea which Paul is urging here is the value of love above all other endowments, from the fact that it would be "abiding," or permanent - an idea which is more certainly and fully met by a reference to the future world than by a reference to the state of things in the church on earth. If it refers to heaven, it means that the power of communicating thoughts there will not be by the medium of learned and foreign tongues. What will be the mode is unknown. But as the diversity of tongues is one of the fruits of sin Genesis 11, it is evident that in those who are saved there will be deliverance from all the disadvantages which have resulted from the confusion of tongues. Yet love will not cease to be necessary; and love will live forever.

I believe it is relevant that the manifestation of speaking in unknown languages/tongues DID cease. The early church fathers barely mentioned it and some even did say it was no longer there. It HAS only been in the last few centuries that a new "movement" has occurred and is markably different than that of the first century. Just like the miraculous gift of healing - which the Apostles demonstrated - ceased with them. Gifts of Healings (special healers) and Tongues - shall cease - The miraculous gift of different languages, that soon shall cease, as being unnecessary as would Healers, because the Gospel would be confirmed not by signs and wonders of preachers of the Gospel but by the power and authority of God's word - which changes hearts.

I think that these types of "minsters" will have much to answer to God for - not only their fleecing of the flock but their false and accursed Gospel.

Important statment there...as the Gospel they are preaching from what I've seen and heard is not the Gospel of the Biblical Christian Christ. The enemy of men's souls knows his trickery well and as is usual counterfeits all that is God's.

The Lord tells us that as our Shepherd...we hear his voice....so too this is counterfeited

I have asked the question more than once of those who claim these gifts how do they tell the differnce between the counterfeits and the so called authentic? To date that question still has not been answered by those who practice this gift of tongues.

I know that what I see of tongues in the occults and pagan worshippers is very much like that these people claim...as is the behavior....So one certainly can't tell by what things appear.

So How do they know? IMO they don't nor can they know until that question is answered.

And so will the flock. For NOT studying the Scriptures daily, "to see if those things were so"

I agree....I can recall when the charismatic movement first hit where I lived. Whatever church it came into ended up splitting the congregation....and being a smaller community the town also became divided. There was much confusion and unrest....It was awful for many who lost friends and family members over this tongue speaking, and the theatrics which they brought with them....not to mention for the young Christians who were being mis-led if they didn't speak in tongues then they weren't saved.

The problems with communicating were similar to what we see on these threads.....when confronted with the truth of the scriptures those who insisted this gift was real could not handle the idea that what they had been told was "evidence" of their salvation could be a counterfeit, and not of the Lord ...... To imagine they could be deceived was beyond a possibility in their minds.

.... For others it was like removing a pacifier from a baby....it was their only source of comfort they had learned to depend on when the road got rough. They had little knowledge of knowing what it is to "Be still and know that I am God" for in their desperate moments they leaned on tongues rather than on God Himself... for in their minds praying in tongues surely would mean God heard them since it was taught to them they had a "special" connection to God thru this so called prayer language. So for them it was cutting off that connection. And this is what this twisted teaching does to people and more.

So the fact tongues brings such division and confusion among the church memebers....it was not hard to see something was very wrong about the whole movement.

"Just like the miraculous gift of healing - which the Apostles demonstrated - ceased with them. Gifts of Healings (special healers) and Tongues - shall cease - The miraculous gift of different languages, that soon shall cease, as being unnecessary as would Healers,... because... the Gospel would be confirmed not by signs and wonders of preachers of the Gospel but 'by the power and authority of God's word - which changes hearts."

Yes exactly......and that makes perfect sense to believers because it's written that with these end-times false Christs and false prophets will appear and 'perform' signs and miracles to deceive ....and there will be MANY of them and MANY who believe these.

Matthew 24:11 states..." and MANY false prophets will appear and deceive MANY people."

and further stating...2 Thessalonians 2:9......" The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders."

So it is not hard to see these false teachers and prophets of our day are setting the stage for people to believe the anti-Christ who will perform such feats....they will already be wired to believe what he will perform for them.

One would wonder what possible reasoning they could do to not believe, since they are already well fed the counterfeit now.

2 Peter 2:1....states...." But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. ....They will SECRETLY introduce destructive heresies,..... even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Here's another story of Copeland...

It was said of Copeland during one of his gatherings , while he was rambling on extensively in tongues and the crowd was all hyped up... that when another preacher began praying and going from one to the other the micophone picked up Copeland saying..."Take the mark of the beast".....but the people themselves were so wired up they weren't even listening to what was being said to them.

Just like the miraculous gift of healing - which the Apostles demonstrated - ceased with them. Gifts of Healings (special healers) and Tongues - shall cease - The miraculous gift of different languages, that soon shall cease, as being unnecessary as would Healers, because the Gospel would be confirmed not by signs and wonders of preachers of the Gospel but by the power and authority of God's word - which changes hearts.

And that's one area of the charismatic movement which is so telling. Lots of show (the gifts) and little substance (fruit of the Spirit).

Jesus said that by their FRUIT you shall know them and even went as far as to say that for those who appeal to signs and wonders that were done in His name, that He never knew them. So clearly, the displays of power and the *miraculous* are no indication at all of spiritual life or growth.

What's that David said? Create in me a clean heart and renew a right spirit within me.

The first step for me was to realize and admit once an for all that God is a GOOD God. Blaming God will short circuit your faith immediately as will fear and unbelief.

God is a good God because He is......

He is good because it's His nature to be good.

His goodness is not predicated on His catering to me and giving me any and every thing I petulantly demand.

His goodness is not evaluated by my outward circumstances.

God is good and He sends rain on the just and the unjust. God is also still good when He allows trial and testing into our lives as He did with Job.

To imply that God is good therefore He will always have to give us everything we want is ludicrous.

Any parent knows that giving in to a child all the time and giving them what they want is not good for them.

How many times do you hear of kids who try to manipulate their parents into giving them what they want with accusations of *you don't love me. You don't want me to be happy* simply because the parents didn't give in.

Many times, it's showing more love by saying *No* than *Yes* because as parents we know more, we see the bigger picture more and sometimes it's simply because we have something better planned for them than what they're asking and we simply cannot fulfill both wishes at the same time.

What comes to mind is the time my kids wanted to go to the zoo, which we did pretty regularly, and I said *No* which they didn't understand and were bent out of shape about. And that was because the time frame in which they wanted to go to the zoo was when mr. mm and I had planned a trip to Florida with them, which I knew they would like much better, and there was simply no way I could literally, physically do both at the same time.

So if they got their way, going to the local zoo, they would have forfeited the trip to FL.

Also the name it and claim it, denies the sovereignty of God. Let God be God. He sees the bigger picture and trust Him enough that He loves us enough to do the best for us even if it's not what we want, not what we like, or not on our schedule.

If you think you can do a better job running your life than God can, then by all means, run it. But be aware that you could also be shooting yourself in the foot.

"So the fact tongues brings such division and confusion among the church memebers....it was not hard to see something was very wrong about the whole movement."

To be fair caww,I've seen the gospel do pretty much the same thing in church.

Me personally,I've not spoken in tongues...much...I've sort of tried it or 'let' it if you know what I mean.It didn't particularly click with me,I didn't like it for whatever reason(a reason that eludes me to this day) However I'm well aware that sometimes when I have a bad feeling about something,it aint always the Spirit of God but rather my own flesh squirming.Sometimes it's difficult to tell..."who can know it?"

On Kenneth Copeland,I've not before read the quotes posted on this thread and some of them are troubling to say the least.However,I watched His broadcast here in Oz (430am!)for about 10-12 years and sort of got to know him and where he was coming from and I had absolutely no doubt that he 'got it' and many of his sermons were,to me at least,very strong spiritual meat.Many many times during his sermons he would look down the camera with that big Texan block head of his and say something that was straight from God to me and boy oh boy did I ever feel convicted! He was and is to me one of the most annointed preachers of the Word that I have ever heard.

"...micophone picked up Copeland saying..."Take the mark of the beast""

If Copeland actually meant what that statement seems to be implying he meant,that would indeed stagger my mind and grieve me greatly.I hope that doesn't trouble any here,I'm just thankfull for what I learned way back when listening to his sermons.

Hoping this thread doesn't get locked.

God bless

Just google “Copeland says take the mark of the beast”....and it wasn’t just him speaking that stuff. Those with him were as well...but they are so hyped up they haven’t a clue what’s coming out of their mouths...or if inddeed they do then they are certainly working for the enemy of mens souls.....

The problem with copeland listeners is they don’t reserach the guy their listening to. He’s been known for sometime to be a fraud....but his followers are told “Not to touch their annointed one” and they are so full of fear about that they simply continue on.

Copelands ministry is a fraud in every sense of the word..if you check it out you will see as much...and not buy into the fact he spews to his listeners that anything negative said about him or his ministry is of satan trying to distroy it....that’s hogwash...Copeland will destroy his own ministry just as Baker and others have before him.

Copeland has a vast legal system which goes up against any who threaten his ministry....no different than any other leader who will not let anyone take down their empire of wealth...His Gospel is a counterfeit and the Christ he presents is not the Christian Christ.

I encourage you to trust your discernment and 10+ years of listening and the edification therefrom.

The only explanation I might have for the “Mark of The Beast” thing is the sort of thing that happened a few times in a very anointed house church ministry I knew in San Diego.

The couple leading it—an MD and his wife—experienced an interesting phenomena several times-I think one or two of the other leaders did as well.

As well as I can describe it—sometimes the enemy caused one of the partners to hear something that was not said. The partner really heard audibly words that were twisted by the enemy and from the enemy to be heard as though the other partner said them.

Other times, it was as though one partner actually said things that the speaker insisted they had NOT said. In those cases, it was soooo out of character for the speaker that the others knew the enemy must have been involved.

I believe I can discern Kenneth’s heart and spirit as well. There’s no way he’s sold out to anything or anyone but Jesus the Christ of Nazareth who came in the flesh . . . died on the Cross . . . rose again . . . etc.

There’s no way Kenneth advocates for anyone that they take the Mark of The Beast.

The closest I can imagine to that is the Scripture about let him who’s righteous be righteous still; him that’s evil, be evil still.

Thanks for your commentary. It’s congruent with my long ago limited listening to a number of Copeland’s tapes.

I say again . . . which folks glibly ignore . . . virtually ANYONE who had 100% of their statements—much more so their thoughts—broadcast routinely for decades—would have more than enough fodder for other Christians to consign them to hell or the funny farm.

That’s true for virtually any preacher and any Christian.

People have no idea, seemingly, about the hideousness of the critical spirit. Judging in the flesh is not pretty and it does not have pretty consequences.

Please pray about this in terms of your discomfort with ‘tongues.’

—it’s not per se natural in the sense of being familiar, comfortable from familiarity etc. Of course it’s going to feel somewhat uncomfortable initially—IF ONE FOCUSES on the sensations vs on Jesus.

—Satan has a strong investment in tweaking up our natural discomforts with anything which would facilitate communication with or closeness with Jesus.

—we are, as mortals, usually, far too addicted to ‘fear of man’ and approval of others. How does one imagine approval for doing something there’s NO SCRIPT FOR—NO WAY TO “GET IT RIGHT” FOR YOU BECAUSE IT’S SUPPOSED TO BE UNIQUE FOR YOU BETWEEN YOU AND GOD.

—I think that’s ACTUALLY ONE of the strategies, objectives and benefits of tongues—it FORCES—in a sense—us to ‘get over our-selves’ and abandon to God. NOT in a possessed sense—HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT LIKE DEMONIC SPIRITS ON SUCH SCORES. He only comes and influences as in a dance where He’s invited.

—And, the enemy is always looking for a chance—often for months or longer afterwards—even with folks who are energetically praying routinely in tongues—the enemy is looking for a chance to get them to focus on the sensations etc. and to start doubting and feeling so uncomfortable that they abandon the whole thing because he knows how powerful it is in their relationship with God and against satan’s kingdom.

—And, as The Lord made clear to me one time when I no longer experienced the ‘electric Holy Spirit goose bumps’ types of sensations when praying in tongues—WAS I DOING IT IN FAITH OR NOT? DID I RECEIVE SALVATION BY FAITH OR NOT? WAS I GOING TO TRUST HOLY SPIRIT TO CONVEY HIS PERFECT MEANING TO WHATEVER SHOUDS I UTTERED, OR NOT.

—That settled it for me. Sometimes the electric Holy Spirit goose bumps are there and usually not. As one of the best pastors of my life said . . . we walk by faith, not by feelings. But praise God when the feelings come.

—Most often, the supernatural sensations are there when I’m ministering to someone and the anointing comes over me—as can happen when I’m praying in English or in tongues. When the experience occurs when I’m praying in tongues as with a stuck client situation or when functioning on the altar prayer team—the interpretation follows and I give that.

Perhaps you could consider going back to God and noting that you are eager to receive and practice all the Biblical Gifts of His Spirit that he has for you. That you’d at least like to be able to pray in tongues. Then step out in faith obediently with sound sequences not from a lanugage you have learned and see how God affirms such efforts with fruit in your life.

Thanks for sharing your testimony. I think you are quite accurate about Kenneth. Most of the greats of the Bible had flaws ‘worthy buckets of rocks.’

If someone is sold out to Jesus and overwhelmingly talks like it and more walks like it—that’s good enough for me.

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