Brethren, Peace and Good to you in our Lord Jesus Christ. I was asked the following question by a dear Orthodox Christian sister in a forum I participate. I want to share both the question and my answer with all of you:Posted on 02/28/2012 10:31:29 PM PST by Teófilo
Brethren, Peace and Good to you in our Lord Jesus Christ. I was asked the following question by a dear Orthodox Christian sister in a forum I participate. I want to share both the question and my answer with all of you:
…with your suggestion of discussing what happens when we venerate holy icons, and given that we agree that to venerate the icon is to draw near to the person in the image, then the question remains how does drawing near to Christ, the Theotokos, and the Saints affect us.
I’ll be brief for a change. I think that becoming holy is to become fully human and that when we become holy, we are able to take off the masks we present to others, the masks of our pretenses, of the ideals promulgated by our Pagan culture. We are able to show ourselves to others as who we are, in all of our depths, in the reality that God meant us to be from eternity.
The iconographer recognizes this fact; he or she has the gift to see the holy ones as they truly are now, shining with inner light in eternity. With economy of form and movement, the iconographer captures the inner depths and the outer symmetries of the holy one who is now fully what God intended him to be.
The iconodule or “icon venerator” (you and me, I hope) recognizes that we are meant to be subjects for a future iconographer. We need to reflect the Glory of God in Jesus in ourselves, by being the man or woman God intended us to be from eternity, before sin marred us. Our duty of sorts is to be a subject for an iconographer and through the exchange, to become examples for others to emulate.
That’s why icons appeal so much to me, why I treasure and venerate them, and become closer in the Body of Christ to those whom the icon re-presents to us on earth.
“Nobody is sacrificing chickens or anything else like the pagans did to their “god’.”
Prayer is, itself, a form of sacrifice, but that is beside the point, since the commandment forbids even the making of the images, and bowing down to them, not only sacrificing to them, and it mentions nothing of “like the pagans do”.
Exodus 20:4-6
“4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.”
Deuteronomy 5:8-10
“8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments”
-——You guys bow to and pray to your icons and ask them to perform miracles for you...To provide grace and even salvation for you...And we are not talking of icons of Jesus, are we...Why are you in denial?———
LOL!
I imagine you don’t live around many Catholics. When I tell Catholics here in MA about posts like this, they don’t believe it. We don’t experience this kind of silliness up here, except for the rare “Bible Chapel.”
Although for a few Catholics, it confirms stereotypes of “snakehandlers.”
Good luck with your conversion efforts, though. Your style is a sure winner.
More stereotypes.
Catholics, muzlims and hindus all praying to a graven image of Mary...
Catholics worshiping a graven image of Mary...
A pope worshiping a graven image of Mary...
Catholics worshiping an image of a pope...
I get a kick out of these bath tub Madonnas...
Deny all you want...Catholics thruout the world have provided us with massive amounts of evidence...
But when you take the traditional history away it just gets to be more cliched stereotype metaphors.
Just pick up ink on paper bible in English from a translation of another languages. Then let's call it solo scriptural . But we will say we read it only but the real reality is a lot of the ideas come from outside sources telling you the real meaning like books and other people. All the stereotypes come from someone outside. I know I would listen or read then go back to what said verse means not fully discovering what it meant on my own. So this fallacy of Bible alone is so wrong. Christ left a church not a book. The Church came first. The book is to be guide by the successive church given by Christ.
When you finally realize how it does not add up with out the true authority given by Christ.
I went to ordination of priests. The bishop explains the laying on of hands for two thousand years in the Church. Then all clergy from bishops to existing put hands on new priests then back again several times. Which is totally from scripture. No church does this from apostolic successive except Our Church and Orthodox branches.
ACTS 6: 5 This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6 They presented these men to the APOSTLES, Who Prayed and LAID Their HANDS on Them.
7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of PRIESTS became obedient to the faith.
This has been going on from the beginning. Goes right to the book of Acts. The Lampstand is still here.
Praise be to Jesus !!!
You think that’s bad, I’ve seen Protestants praying to beds! Don’t deny it, I have photographic evidence!
—— This has been going on from the beginning. Goes right to the book of Acts. The Lampstand is still here.
Praise be to Jesus !!!——
Yes. Thank God for His Church.
Don't Worry We know you would not understand. But we will be praying for you!
CUTE!
That’s what I’m talking about ;-)
What does that have to do with the question at hand? God gave us a prohibition in the ten commandments that was never rescinded. Idolaters are still condemned in the New Testament, so there is direct evidence that it, in fact was not rescinded. You can cite all the verses you want about funeral rites, or miraculous healings delivered in various ways by God, or honoring other people, but none of that serves to counteract God’s commandments.
Perhaps its semantics.
“In the OT, God forbids intrinsic evils (the 10 Commandments)...”
Well, your previous post stated that God can’t command intrinsic evils, so because God commanded certain statues to be carved, such an act can’t be intrinsically evil. Now, you say that the 10 Commandments forbid intrinsic evils, and the 10 Commandments forbid the making of, the bowing down to, and the serving of graven images of anything in earth or in heaven. So, which is it? Is the 2nd Commandment forbidding an intrinsic evil or not?
Still, the answer to that is just a side issue. As you admit, God can forbid whatever He wants, whether it is intrinsically evil or not. You posit that we aren’t bound by the 10 Commandments anymore, but only by what the Church says. I’m sorry, but if the Church took it upon themselves to permit murder, or adultery, or theft, I doubt many would buy the argument that they had such authority. Why then should we accept that they have the authority to allow idolatry, especially when the New Testament tells us that it is still forbidden? Christ gives a vision to John that shows that idolators will not enter the Kingdom. Can the Church make Christ a liar by issuing a fiat?
The way I see it, there are only two ways that you can reasonably try to justify this stuff. You can try to assert that the practices aren’t idolatry, but the 2nd Commandment simply doesn’t provide any “wiggle room” in that regard. The New Testament definitions of idolatry provide even less! The other argument is what you seem to be saying, that the Church can just overrule clear and unambiguous pronouncements of God recorded in Scripture and tradition that predates the Church. If that is the argument that you are going to stand on, then I can’t see any point in arguing the matter further, since I don’t see any way to reason with someone taking such a position.
Thanks for the family portrait but which one is you???
“Can you say with certainty that everyone else WILL BE tempted to idolatry simply because you feel certain that THEY WILL BE?”
It’s not an issue of whether EVERYONE will be tempted, but only if some will be tempted. Christians are admonished in the New Testament to refrain from things that may tempt their brethren who are not as strong in the faith to commit sin. We have plenty of examples of this happening in relation to Christian iconography, for example, the heresy of Mariolatry, and the cults which have sprung up, such as Santeria and Santa Muerte, which use Christian icons for unambiguously idolatrous worship, and draw the majority of their converts from the Catholic church. This is not a theoretical question, these things are happening in the real world.
So, as you say, you can’t prove a negative, but can you disprove a positive? Can you disprove this statement: “Certain idolators regularly use Christian iconography in their false worship, and they have been tempted into believing that this is proper by the Church’s acceptance of iconography in their own worship.”
If you can’t disprove that statement, then how can you justify the Church continuing to approve of practices which tempt the weak to sin gravely against God?
Lovely idea. To implement it, either Catholics and Orthodox must abandon images/icons, or Protestants must accept them.
Which do you suggest?
None of the scriptures you quote show people bowing to the Ark and therefore before the cherubim on the Ark.
I’d also like to point out the pictorial representation is inaccurate, at least for the period after the Temple was built.
Only the High Priest ever entered the Most Holy, where the Ark was kept, and then only once a year. You would never have seen two priests together before the Ark.
On a side note, one would think the Most Holy would get awfully dusty.
-——the 10 Commandments forbid the making of, the bowing down to, and the serving of graven images of anything in earth or in heaven. So, which is it?———
Uh, Catholics don’t worship statues any more than Protestants worship beds.
If you want to believe otherwise, be my guest.
Just don’t expect to be taken seriously by Catholics.
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