Brethren, Peace and Good to you in our Lord Jesus Christ. I was asked the following question by a dear Orthodox Christian sister in a forum I participate. I want to share both the question and my answer with all of you:Posted on 02/28/2012 10:31:29 PM PST by Teófilo
Brethren, Peace and Good to you in our Lord Jesus Christ. I was asked the following question by a dear Orthodox Christian sister in a forum I participate. I want to share both the question and my answer with all of you:
…with your suggestion of discussing what happens when we venerate holy icons, and given that we agree that to venerate the icon is to draw near to the person in the image, then the question remains how does drawing near to Christ, the Theotokos, and the Saints affect us.
I’ll be brief for a change. I think that becoming holy is to become fully human and that when we become holy, we are able to take off the masks we present to others, the masks of our pretenses, of the ideals promulgated by our Pagan culture. We are able to show ourselves to others as who we are, in all of our depths, in the reality that God meant us to be from eternity.
The iconographer recognizes this fact; he or she has the gift to see the holy ones as they truly are now, shining with inner light in eternity. With economy of form and movement, the iconographer captures the inner depths and the outer symmetries of the holy one who is now fully what God intended him to be.
The iconodule or “icon venerator” (you and me, I hope) recognizes that we are meant to be subjects for a future iconographer. We need to reflect the Glory of God in Jesus in ourselves, by being the man or woman God intended us to be from eternity, before sin marred us. Our duty of sorts is to be a subject for an iconographer and through the exchange, to become examples for others to emulate.
That’s why icons appeal so much to me, why I treasure and venerate them, and become closer in the Body of Christ to those whom the icon re-presents to us on earth.
Alrighty, then what about making them, or bowing down to them? As I said, the 2nd Commandment doesn’t leave any “wiggle room”. You can try to interpret your way out of it all you want, but the words are plain as day for anyone to read. Certainly the Jews knew full well what the words meant, for you won’t find a single “monument” or “icon” to Moses, Elijah, Jacob, or David in the archaeological record of ancient Israel. Honest modern Jews will attest to this as well, as one already has on this very thread.
“To implement it, either Catholics and Orthodox must abandon images/icons, or Protestants must accept them.”
That’s the crux of the matter, isn’t it? Now, which is a greater compromise?
To a Catholic, iconography is an optional thing, since they can pay respect to the saints without them. There were periods of time when worship was performed in their basilicas without a single statue present. So, there is no obstacle to performing the same type of services again, unless they are unwilling to accept that the optional observances they have instituted are truly optional and can be reversed for the sake of unity.
To a Protestant, iconography is idolatry, and therefore one of the most hated things to our jealous God. All sin may be equal in the eyes of God, but it’s clear that God reserves a special distaste for this act, which He has demonstrated willingness to expunge entire nations from the face of the Earth for. From that point of view, there can be no compromise, idolatry is not optional in any way, shape or form.
By my reckoning, reconciliation could only be achieved if those who are able to compromise make the compromise. Those for whom compromise is not an option can never breach that divide. To speak of a true reconciliation without tackling these issues is mere daydreaming.
Perhaps it is semantics. What words would you prefer? Override? Make no longer binding? Dismiss? Annul?
The muslims have a word for what I’m getting at. In English, they say such and such a verse is “abrogated” by a later verse. Can the 2nd Commandment be abrogated by a verse that has little, if anything, to do with the specific topic of the 2nd Commandment? I think not, but perhaps you have a different opinion.
-——the 10 Commandments forbid the making of, the bowing down to, and the serving of graven images of anything in earth or in heaven. So, which is it?———
Uh, Catholics don’t worship statues any more than Protestants worship beds.
If you want to believe otherwise, be my guest.
Just don’t expect to be taken seriously by Catholics.
-——Alrighty, then what about making them, or bowing down to them?———
You mean like Protestant bed-worshippers? But Protestants aren’t worshipping beds, are they? They’re PRAYING, just like other Protestants who “bow down” before paintings of Jesus, or framed Scripture quotations. God’s not opposed to prayer, nor any prayer aid. Why would He be?
——As I said, the 2nd Commandment doesn’t leave any “wiggle room”-——
Then get your own house in order, and take up your pharisaical crusade against Christian bookstores.
The point of the Second Commandment, which is obvious to Catholics, is not to worship false idols. The golden calf would be a the prime OT example. But idols can take many forms. Today, worldly success and hedonism would be the most common. Aside from some New Agers and Wiccans, there aren’t too many people ascribing magical properties to physical objects.
If you want to engage in serious dialogue with Catholics, study the Catholic position. If you want to argue with straw men, you’ll only end up talking to yourself.
The Veneration of Images
Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm
-——Alrighty, then what about making them, or bowing down to them?———
You mean like Protestant bed-worshippers? But Protestants aren’t worshipping beds, are they? They’re PRAYING, just like other Protestants who “bow down” before paintings of Jesus, or framed Scripture quotations. God’s not opposed to prayer, nor any prayer aid. Why would He be?
——As I said, the 2nd Commandment doesn’t leave any “wiggle room”-——
Then get your own house in order, and take up your pharisaical crusade against Christian bookstores.
The point of the Second Commandment, which is obvious to Catholics, is not to worship false idols. The golden calf would be a the prime OT example. But idols can take many forms. Today, worldly success and hedonism would be the most common. Aside from some New Agers and Wiccans, there aren’t too many people ascribing magical properties to physical objects.
If you want to engage in serious dialogue with Catholics, study the Catholic position. If you want to argue with straw men, you’ll only end up talking to yourself.
The Veneration of Images
Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm
-——Alrighty, then what about making them, or bowing down to them?———
You mean like Protestant bed-worshippers? But Protestants aren’t worshipping beds, are they? They’re PRAYING, just like other Protestants who “bow down” before paintings of Jesus, or framed Scripture quotations. God’s not opposed to prayer, nor any prayer aid. Why would He be?
——As I said, the 2nd Commandment doesn’t leave any “wiggle room”-——
Then get your own house in order, and take up your pharisaical crusade against Christian bookstores.
The point of the Second Commandment, which is obvious to Catholics, is not to worship false idols. The golden calf would be the prime OT example. But idols can take many forms. Today, worldly success and hedonism would be the most common. Aside from some New Agers and Wiccans, there aren’t too many people ascribing magical properties to physical objects.
If you want to engage in serious dialogue with Catholics, study the Catholic position. If you want to argue with straw men, you’ll only end up talking to yourself.
The Veneration of Images
Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm
-——Alrighty, then what about making them, or bowing down to them?———
You mean like Protestant bed-worshippers? But Protestants aren’t worshipping beds, are they? They’re PRAYING, just like other Protestants who “bow down” before paintings of Jesus, or framed Scripture quotations. God’s not opposed to prayer, nor any prayer aid. Why would He be?
——As I said, the 2nd Commandment doesn’t leave any “wiggle room”-——
Then get your own house in order, and take up your pharisaical crusade against Christian bookstores.
The point of the Second Commandment, which is obvious to Catholics, is not to worship false idols. The golden calf would be the prime OT example. But idols can take many forms. Today, worldly success and hedonism would be the most common. Aside from some New Agers and Wiccans, there aren’t too many people ascribing magical properties to physical objects.
If you want to engage in serious dialogue with Catholics, study the Catholic position. If you want to argue with straw men, you’ll only end up talking to yourself.
The Veneration of Images
Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm
Try as I might, I couldn't find a picture of Catholics praying to an icon of Jesus...No surprise there...But I did find a picture of Catholics worshiping the 'little black Jesus' in Manilla...
As we can see, there is no discernible difference when worshiping the wafer or worshiping Mary or a dead saint...
Veneration isn't a real word...It's a Catholic word...Veneration doesn't exist outside of the Catholic religion...It was invented to dupe the people into believing that you are not worshiping Mary and the saints when it is exactly the same as when you worship the wafer...
Look at the pictures...You worship Mary the same way, with the same actions and words that you worship Jesus with...
And every picture you see is a direct violation of the Commandments of God...
You may call it 'veneration' to soften the blow, but it is worship all the same...
-——Look at the pictures...You worship Mary the same way, with the same actions and words that you worship Jesus with...———
Are the Protestants praying before beds worshipping beds, just like they worship Jesus?
Why/why not?
BTW, I have pictures to prove it. It happens. Don’t deny it.
If you can’t disprove that statement, then how can you justify the Church continuing to approve of practices which tempt the weak to sin gravely against God?
1. Oy! The problem is not the Church's doctrine which she has made clear and I've posted here before. Whoseover becomes an objective idolater does so despite the Church's clear teaching and warning, not because of them.
2. Oy again! I don't need to "disprove a positive" but if you are positing the affirmation, you are the one who needs to put forward evidence to back up the assertion. It is not my role to come up with evidence to prove or disprove anything. I will not be doing your homework. Don't present to me half-cooked arguments for me to complete or guess because I won't.
3. Like icons, money, sex, possessions, food, health, looks, fashions, politics, ideology, are means to an end and not end in themselves. When these become ends in themselves, they become idols. By your logic we should completely abstain from them also, for clearly, the prohibition for idolatry also extends to them. Well, do you?
-Theo
This is your argument??? You're in worse shape than I thought...
Unlike Catholics who pray to their graven images of things supposed in heaven, while asking these graven images to provide miracles and salvation, kids don't pray to their beds...They don't ask their beds to provide grace...
Protestant kids pray at bedtime to Jesus while on their knees and leaning on their beds...Apparently this is unfamiliar to Catholics...
-—— Protestant kids pray at bedtime to Jesus while on their knees and leaning on their beds...-——
Oh, sure. A likely excuse. It’s clear from the photos that they’re worshipping beds.
You’re clearly in denial.
I got it all figured! I am a first rate scholar I am!! Yeah! Honey get me a another beer! I am talking to those Catholics again. Please blow off some dust on that bible so I can read it to em!
No more than it forbids having pictures of your loved ones.
“You mean like Protestant bed-worshippers? But Protestants aren’t worshipping beds, are they?”
This is a weak argument only meant to confuse the issue. The 2nd Commandment doesn’t talk about beds, or stools, or tables, it talks about graven images. Utilitarian items or pieces of furniture built for a specific function were never considered to be the subject of the 2nd Commandment, but images and icons, like the ones used by the Catholic and Orthodox churches were always understood to be the subject.
“Then get your own house in order, and take up your pharisaical crusade against Christian bookstores.”
I’ll ignore the “pharisaical insult”, but if they are selling icons and idols, then I condemn them as well. Still, the sin is far graver if it is done under the roof of what is supposed to be the Lord’s House, rather than a bookstore.
“The point of the Second Commandment, which is obvious to Catholics, is not to worship false idols.”
This is where the Catholics part ways with Jews, the early Christians, and the Bible. The point of the 2nd Commandment is to forbid the making, bowing down to, and serving of graven images of anything in earth or in heaven. There is simply no such thing as a “true idol”, all idols are false.
“But idols can take many forms. Today, worldly success and hedonism would be the most common.”
No argument here. Again, I posit that idolatry promoted in the House of God is a graver matter. Certainly, it is a matter that is within the power of the church to directly address and correct, which is not necessarily true about all the myriad shades of idolatry in the world.
“Aside from some New Agers and Wiccans, there aren’t too many people ascribing magical properties to physical objects.”
That’s just wishful thinking. There are plenty of people who do exactly this, even if they would not admit to it in those terms because of conceit or other reasons. If your position was true, then it wouldn’t be common practice for Catholics to carry medals of saints for “good luck”, wear scapulars to somehow procure special graces, or bury statues of St. Joseph in the yard to help them sell their houses. All of that is still a tangential issue, since one doesn’t have to “acribe magical powers” to objects to be violating the 2nd Commandment. The wording is plain, simply performing the actions, even without some additional intent, is forbidden.
“If you want to engage in serious dialogue with Catholics, study the Catholic position.”
I know the Catholic position. I can read the Catechism just as well as I can read the Bible, but I simply do not accept that rationalizations from the church can override the obvious, simple truth of God’s word.
“1. Oy! The problem is not the Church’s doctrine which she has made clear and I’ve posted here before. Whoseover becomes an objective idolater does so despite the Church’s clear teaching and warning, not because of them.”
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the doctrine is correct in its delineation of the different forms of veneration and worship. I’m not ceding that point, except for the sake of argument, to demonstrate that there is still a big problem here. I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, Christians are forbidden to engage in acts which are prone to lead brothers and sisters who are weaker in the faith to sin. According to the church doctrine, engaging in proper veneration of icons/saints/Mary is one step away from improper worship. Is it not a fact that members of the church in fact do, from time to time, take that step and engage in false worship using these very objects which are approved of by the church?
I liken this situation to if the Church were leaving the Communion wine unattended, and leaving it up to the flock to go up and serve themselves whenever they like, knowing full well that some members would be tempted to abuse it for purposes of drunkenness. Simply saying “if you do that, you’re making a mistake” is the absolute laziest and most ineffective step that the church could take to prevent such error. In fact, it’s an even worse situation when it comes to icons, since the church is required to provide the wine for an essential function of worship, while icons are a purely optional addition, and an endlessly controversial one at that.
“2. Oy again! I don’t need to “disprove a positive” but if you are positing the affirmation, you are the one who needs to put forward evidence to back up the assertion.”
Well, what evidence do I need to present? Those cults are common knowledge are they not? Certainly the heresy of Mariolatry should be known to you, you cannot deny that since it is condemned by your own church. Who engages in Mariolatry? Jews? Buddhists? Moslems? No, it’s self-evident to anyone with any awareness of these issues that Mariolatry is a heresy mostly peculiar to the Catholic and Orthodox. The heresy is peculiar to them, because it springs from a situation that is present in those churches and not present in most others, namely, that of putting the temptation towards that heresy right in front of worshippers when they enter the church, and furthermore, not taking the necessary steps to prevent it. If you wish to deny that this is an issue, then fine, I am not going to attempt to argue with someone who wishes to remain wilfully blind and feign ignorance of things which are plain to see.
“3. Like icons, money, sex, possessions, food, health, looks, fashions, politics, ideology, are means to an end and not end in themselves. When these become ends in themselves, they become idols.”
Agreed. Anything can be made an idol.
“By your logic we should completely abstain from them also, for clearly, the prohibition for idolatry also extends to them. Well, do you?”
No, this is not “by my logic”, but by your misunderstanding of my logic perhaps. First of all, it’s not possible or at least feasible for most to abstain from many things which could become objects of idolatry, for example, food, money, sex, clothing. Abstaining from these things in order to prevent their abuse would lead to death or undue burden without rational justification. On the other hand, there’s no pressing need to make graven images and bow down to them in our daily lives, and there is certainly no pressing need for them in the context of proper worship. On top of that, we know that God regards these specific types of idolatry with a special disregard, so much so that he included this activity in the decalogue and right up near the top of the list. What pressing argument could there possibly be as to why we need to allow and even endorse an activity that is specifically forbidden by God alongside such things as murder, theft, and adultery? Things which aren’t included in that list, such as homosexual activity, are rightly denounced by the church, but making and bowing before graven images is not? Where is the logic in that?
The “We must get rid of division” types always remind me of liberals denouncing partisanship.
Somehow their solution is always for others to abandon their own deeply held beliefs and agree with them, not for them to abandon their own.
When the Orthodox venerate an Icon of a Saint, we are not bowing down to paint and wood, nor are we bowing down to the Saint, but rather we are venerating the Christ in that Saint, and we are humbling ourselves in the process. The honor goes to the prototype, which is Christ our God. All of the faithful within the body of Christ are “baptized into Christ”, and have “put on Christ”. In our unity of faith, we therefore look to the Christ within one another. It is a wonderful reminder that when we come upon a fellow Christian in faith and love, WE are the lower one and we bow low before the Christ showing forth in them.
When the Orthodox venerate an Icon of a Saint, we are not bowing down to paint and wood, nor are we bowing down to the Saint, but rather we are venerating the Christ in that Saint, and we are humbling ourselves in the process. The honor goes to the prototype, which is Christ our God. All of the faithful within the body of Christ are “baptized into Christ”, and have “put on Christ”. In our unity of faith, we therefore look to the Christ within one another. It is a wonderful reminder that when we come upon a fellow Christian in faith and love, WE are the lower one and we bow low before the Christ showing forth in them.
So what you’re really asking is that we stop bowing before Christ. We respectfully decline.
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