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To: pgyanke
Thanks for the response.

So... you fashion yourself as smarter and more gifted by the Spirit than St Thomas Aquinas? Have you ever read the Summa Theologica? You have a greater understanding than St Ambrose, St Augustine, St Catherine of Siena, St Gregory the Great, St John Chrysostom, and St Teresa of Avila (just to name a few)?

Im not at all smarter than quite a few people.

Thank you but I will keep my humility to Holy Church Who has studied, expounded and taught the faith unbrokenly and without contradiction since the Deposit given them by Christ. I certainly do not think my graces and gifts are beyond those of the Apostles, their successors and the saints who have helped us understand so much over the ages.

Here is the problem for me. When I read scripture and it contradicts the teachings of the Roman Church, do I submit to scripture or to Rome? Rome makes a grand claim but their teachings are contrary to the work of God. I would likely be as deceived by Romes claims of authority as you are if they actually taught doctrines that are scriptural. However, since they teach quite a few heresies and are extremely corrupt, it makes it easy to see that their claims are false.

I don't have to be as smart or talented as Thomas Aquinas or Lucifer for that matter to know that I should trust the apostles’ interpretations of the gospel and not the pontiff's. The apostles are the ones who interpreted scripture and the teachings of Jesus for us. We have their writings in the new testament. I don't have a problem with learning from other Christians and gaining knowledge and understanding from their interpretation of scripture but I can't just take them as an authority, I have to confirm what they are saying with scripture myself. Paul commended the Bereans for doing this.

In matters of doctrine, its clear from your post that you hold Rome to be the ultimate authority while I consider God's Word to be the ultimate authority.

Hypothetically, if Rome came out and said that Jesus was the arc angel Michael, what would you do? Would you still believe that they have the authority and infallibility they claim? I suspect you would. How far off do they have to stray from truth before you see that they are false?

90 posted on 02/21/2012 9:32:24 AM PST by Tramonto
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To: Tramonto
When I read scripture and it contradicts the teachings of the Roman Church, do I submit to scripture or to Rome?

Pick one and let's talk about it.

In matters of doctrine, its clear from your post that you hold Rome to be the ultimate authority while I consider God's Word to be the ultimate authority.

The problem for your position is that I can actually find mine in Scripture and you can't... Since I know we'll go down this road next, let me go ahead and support my position...

In 1 Cor 11:2, St Paul praises the Corinthians that they keep the ordinances he delivered to them. This is his "first" letter to the Corinthians, so he isn't referring to Scripture or prior letters. He didn't bring Scripture for them to read, he brought the teachings of Christ in his words and deeds. This is also said to the Phillipians in Phil 4:9.

In 2 Thess 3:6, St Paul admonishes the Thessolonians to withdraw themselves from those who do not walk in the traditions taught by the Apostles.

The idea that each of us is supposed to read the Bible and understand it authoritatively is thoroughly discredited by 2 Peter 1:20. And if we aren't supposed to read it and understand it individually, then there is no Sola Scriptura... someone must have the authority to teach. In fact, St Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:16 that the contortions we go through in trying to understand difficult Scripture is actually leading us to destruction.

Finally, Scripture doesn't refer to Itself as authoritative (I'm not saying It's incorrect. I'm speaking of authority, not infallibility), it points to the Church as the pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

91 posted on 02/21/2012 9:53:13 AM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Tramonto
Hypothetically, if Rome came out and said that Jesus was the arc angel Michael, what would you do?

Silly hypothetical. The Church has been teaching for nearly 2000 years... and Her teachings are not hidden. If you want to understand why She teaches what She does, it doesn't take much research... The Catechism of the Catholic Church would be a great starting point.

If, on the other hand, you have no interest in what the Church teaches, then you would be wise to stop assailing what you have no desire to understand.

"Few Americans hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they think is the Catholic Church." -- Bishop Fulton Sheen

92 posted on 02/21/2012 9:59:12 AM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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