Saul And The Charismatics...

http://billrandles.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/saul-and-the-charismatics/ ^ | 02-14-12 | Bill Randles

[presently no screen name]

Making up stories

You think so? Does God reveal all? You better simmer down. It doesn't bother me what you believe, you don't see me going nuts - you believe God doesn't heal and you don't get healed. No biggie. You get what you expect. I KNOW HE HEALS. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

Now I'll leave your children to play in the mud.

[smvoice]

ONCE MORE TIME: I did NOT say God does NOT HEAL. I said, as we all have said, that God does not have HEALERS. There are NO PEOPLE who can command God by the laying on of hands to heal someone. God heals who HE heals. Not because of a divine healER. There is no gift of divine HEALERS in this age of grace. Get it straight.

[boatbums]

No one is "ranting",

LOL!!!!!

I was trying to be generous. There ARE several ranters here especially the ones unwilling to explain their jigs and jags while accusing others of slinging mud and throwing rocks while they are doing exactly that AND those who are unable to answer a question from another Christian without derogatory comments and snide asides.

Clear as mud to you? Well it can stay that way for you. Some more for you to sling.

Thanks for the excellent example of what I just stated. It wasn't all that long ago that we were allies in the cause of the Gospel. Is this issue THAT important to you that you cannot carry on a respectful conversation? Your comments have NOT been consistent and I'm not the only one saying so. Is it more important to insult that to just give an answer?

[smvoice]

Simmer down?

"Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE." 2 Tim. 4:2.

I bet you DO wish I would "simmer down". But alas, I am going to continue to follow 2 Tim. 4:2 everytime I see false doctrine being given.

Don't like the Scripture I give? Relax. Have a cigar. It's all good behind rose-colored glasses.

[grey_whiskers]

Oh, incidentally (not incendiary) your post failed to address what I intended to be one of the main points about my earlier post: which is that the source which talks about Job, *incorrectly* claimed that Job was the only one who suffered from an illness caused by Satan *without being demon possessed* : Saul the King before David was afflicted by a demon, which affliction was relieved by David's music.

The point I was stressing wasn't whether or not the Demon got permission (that is common to all Biblical accounts) but whether Job was the only one it happened to.

Cheers!

[boatbums]

Oh, incidentally (not incendiary) your post failed to address what I intended to be one of the main points about my earlier post: which is that the source which talks about Job, *incorrectly* claimed that Job was the only one who suffered from an illness caused by Satan *without being demon possessed* : Saul the King before David was afflicted by a demon, which affliction was relieved by David's music. The point I was stressing wasn't whether or not the Demon got permission (that is common to all Biblical accounts) but whether Job was the only one it happened to.

The article that I used was in response to John Wimber's who "saw demons behind many physical illnesses, and most emotional problems, entering into people, both lost and saved, in varying degrees, either for "possession" or "oppression," so as to control all or some aspects of their lives." the article continues "There is no biblical basis for the notion that demons are free to cause illnesses outside the context of full demon possession. [And the power of Satan to enter and "possess" souls uninvited; i.e., at the whim of the demon, was ended at Christ's resurrection.] The only case in the Bible of a person who suffered from an illness caused by Satan without being demon possessed, is that of Job".

When you mention that Saul was "afflicted" by a demon, in Samuel 16:14, we are told that the spirit of the Lord had left Saul and an "evil spirit from the Lord tormented him". This does not say Saul was suffering an illness, but that he was "tormented" and David's music relieved him. In verse 23 of Samuel 16, "Whenever the spirit from God came on Saul, David would take up his lyre and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him." In Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, we read:

And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul,.... See 1 Samuel 16:14 though the word evil is not in the text here; wherefore Abarbinel thinks that this here was the Spirit of God, which stirred up in him thoughts of divine things, put him in mind of what God had said, that he had rejected him from being king, and had rent the kingdom from him; and this filled him with grief and trouble, and he became melancholy:

that David took an harp, and played with his hands; upon it; and, as Josephus (r) says, at the same time sung hymns and psalms; made use both of vocal and instrumental music:

so Saul was refreshed, and was well; became cheerful, his grief was removed, his black and gloomy apprehensions of things were dispersed, and he was cured of his melancholy disorder for the present:

and the evil spirit departed from him: at least for a while; he had his fits and intervals; of the effects of music in a natural way; see Gill on 1 Samuel 16:16, though no doubt the music of David was more than natural, being attended with the power and blessing of God, in order to raise his fame and credit at court.

The gist of the criticism of Wimber was his teachings that nearly all sickness and most emotional problems were a result of demons entering into both saved and unsaved people to control and oppress them. The author was stating that there is no Biblical basis for the notion that demons are free to cause illnesses outside the context of full demon possession. With the example of Job, Satan was permitted by God to afflict Job. And this "would indicate that Satan and his demons have no power to inflict illnesses in the ordinary course of events. To treat illnesses on the basis of a demon needing to be expelled from a particular organ, as Wimber taught, is an idea derived from pagan religious cults and/or the priestcraft of Rome, not from the Bible. Believers will certainly do battle with the wiles and temptations wrought by Satan, "but nowhere in the New Testament is temptation resisted by a process of commanding demons to loose their hold or leave a Christian's mind or body. Satan is resisted by being denied success in the temptation. Or if he mounts an attack of depressive suggestions, he is resisted as the believer strives to keep hold of the comfort and promises of God's Word."

In the case of Saul, it is STILL not a demon, of its own will, afflicting a person and not possessing them. This was the point of the article then and I do not think they made an error by speaking of Job being the only example of illness afflicted by Satan. Whatever Saul was troubled by - an evil spirit from God - it does not say it was Satan. In the common Hebrew text, the word "evil" is not there. In Wesley's Notes, he says, "16:23 Departed - Namely, for a season. And the reason of this success, may be, partly natural, and partly, supernatural, respecting David; whom God designed by this means to bring into favour with the king, and so to smooth the way for his advancement." So men who teach like Wimber that demons are the cause of all suffering and they must be "bound" in order to heal people, is simply not backed up by Scripture.

I don't know if this will get you to read the whole article or not, but it IS interesting what gets passed off as Biblical in the realm of "faith-healers" and their ilk. Have a good night!

[grey_whiskers]

You and I are apparently talking past each other. No animosity, but I prefer to spend my time on FR on other things.

Have a good night.

[metmom]

I was healed by MY FAITH. And I don't serve a 'sometimes' God.

Back when I first became a Christian, some 30+ years ago, late 70's, there was an incident of a woman who went to a faith healer. She had epilepsy and diabetes. He prayed for her and told her she was healed.

He believed it. She believed it. She believed it enough that she went OFF her medication, BELIEVING that she had been and was healed.

She died from her UNHEALED after all, conditions.

I remember it so clearly because of the response of all the non-Christians to the incident. I heard *That's what you get for following the Bible*.

Now, what she did is perfectly in line with the current teaching of the charismatic/pentecostal movement today.

He believed she was healed and told her she was. She believed it to the point of going off her medications, which I have heard people advocate to *prove* that they (I) had enough faith to be healed. She was *walking out* her *healing*. (And I've been told the same thing by plenty of well meaning but misguided Christians)

I have actually heard and been told that when I am prayed for I am healed and that if I continue to have symptoms, that they are just lies of the enemy, his deceit to make me think that I haven't been healed. I should not accept that, but *pray it through*. What I need to do in that case is rebuke the lie and deny the reality of the symptoms because they really aren't real, and walk out the reality of my healing, claiming it for it to be so, acting as if it is so and it WILL BE so.

Now, likely this is what this lady was also told, although I do not know for sure, but what I do know is that according to the theology of the current charismatic/pentecostal movement today, she was doing everything *right*. And yet she died.

OK, pnsn, what went wrong? Did he not have enough faith? Did she not have enough faith? Where was God in that?

Someone with enough faith in their healing to go off their meds has more *faith* than I have because if I'm still having symptoms, I am not presuming that I have been healed yet.

I have no doubt that when the time comes that God should heal me of this health issue, that I will KNOW it. I KNOW I will feel it in my body and I am sure that there will be a concurrent healing in my mind that will allow me to accept that and eat without fear. I am not more powerful than God's healing that I can block what He's going to do.

[metmom]

One of the main reasons many people interpret Paul's thorn in the flesh as a sickness is because of the use of the word "infirmities."

How about the fact that the thorn was in his FLESH? Forget the word infirmities, which CAN mean anything. It clearly says *flesh*- his physical body was affected.

Maybe God didn't remove it to keep him from getting all puffed up about himself and the amount of his faith and acting like a know it all with a condescending attitude towards them because he was great enoguh to get healed and they weren't, as I see allllll toooo often in church.

[metmom]

Yeah, yeah - some people have tried to use the fact that Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletum, to teach that healing is not for everyone.

Sorry that doesn't fit in with your theology but facts are facts.

Your litany of excuses as to why that is the case is without basis.

It take s time to be healed, eh? And Jesus did how many delayed healings?

And how long do I have to wait? Ten years? Twenty years? Going on thirty years now.....?

I've been prayed for and anointed with oil time without count. I've done it the James way and the pentecostal faith healer way, and nothing.....

So then what? It all gets back to it being my fault because my faith is "inadequate".

Well, there's that judgment and condemnation again, more lies of the enemy from the lips of those who claim to be my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Nice.

[Quix]

So . . . are you asserting that

the only options left are

that

A) Jesus no longer heals?

or

B) that bitterness and resentment are great routes to healing

or

C) ???

[presently no screen name]

Talk about being puffed up.

It take s time to be healed, eh? And Jesus did how many delayed healings?

You think we who 'are growing in faith', we are instead to be instantly like Jesus. Nice. We are to strive to be like HIM, you demand others to be like HIM now. What about you? I see how you overlook.........

Mark 4:26 He also said, "This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground.

Mark 4:27 Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how.

All by itself the soil produces grain--first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head.

Mark 4:29 As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come."

Just as the kingdom of God must grow, there is growth in our own personal lives also Acts 9:22, Eph 4:15, 2 Th 1:3, 1Peter 2:2, and 2Peter 3:18.

It is easy to become so impatient waiting for the visible fruit that we neglect our roots(Mark 4:16). When things get tough, only the Word that has personal roots in our hearts will bear fruit.

[presently no screen name]

went to a faith healer. She had epilepsy and diabetes. He prayed for her and told her she was healed. He believed it. She believed it. She believed it enough that she went OFF her medication, BELIEVING that she had been and was healed. She died from her UNHEALED after all, conditions.

You think maybe she believed man? You have no idea who and in what she believed. Let's be honest here.

Some Christians get very excited over the promises of God's Word but make the mistake of not getting firmly established in those truths before they "jump out on a limb" with them. This kind of people withers away when the heat is on. We can't live off of someone else's commitment to the Word; we must have root in ourselves (Mark 4:17)

[metmom]

And just how many people that Jesus healed were well grounded in the word, IOW, knew who Jesus was?

You’re saying that all she needed was faith. Well, she showed it. She obviously had enough faith that God could and did heal her to go off her medications. Now that’s not good enough? She must have been deficient in her faith somewhere else?

That is the PERFECT example of what I’ve been talking about. She didn’t have enough faith. It was in the wrong person. She wasn’t grounded in the word enough. It’s her fault she wasn’t healed.

Since no charismatic is going to blame God for not healing her, then the blame obviously falls on her, and everyone analyzes where she went wrong based on the undesirable results. You don’t know her heart either. You CAN’T make those judgments about her without taking the role of judge and jury.

Well, if she’d just have done it *right* (the charismatic way) then OF COURSE she would have been healed. Spiritual snobbery on display.

Excuses duly noted.

[presently no screen name]

Benny Hinn used that line often that it’s the persons faith that is weak

Perhaps that's where they got it from. IMO, no matter what - my faith in God can never be shaken. If anything is or can be shaken, it's not built with a good foundation and that's not God - it's me and I have no faith in myself. So what really is shaken? Faith in wrong thinking/wrong beliefs. And it's time to go back to The Truth and renew my mind.

If that person came with respect for Hinn and believed he was indeed of God being told that can shake their faith especially if they are a new Christian.

Wouldn't that put a red flag up even for a non Christian?

OK. So he was a Christian before he met her. First love, and all. Thanks for the info on him.

[metmom]

No and no.

I do not have bitterness and resentment, but neither am I going to sit back and watch believers get pummeled over their lack of healing, therefore lack of faith, by those who think they have all the pat answers. Those days are gone for me. I've been on the receiving end of that judgment and condemnation and no more for me or for anyone else.

The sick person needs compassion and understanding. They're usually dealing with enough on their plate without being lectured at. They're already struggling enough with their faith and relationship with God in the midst of something often life threatening. The last thing they need is other bashing them over the head about their lack of spirituality and deficient faith.

Tell me, what takes more faith? Getting healed? Or not getting healed and still loving Jesus and following Him and praising Him, knowing that God is GOOD anyway, even if things don't go the way I want all the time and trusting Him to get me through it? When I am weak, then I am strong.

It's easy to believe in a Santa God.

There is too much judgment and condemnation from the ranks of the charismatics. The legalism within is appalling.

1 Thessalonians 5:14-22 14 And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. 15 See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

[presently no screen name]

Exactly, Quix. Thank you.

The hypocrisy of some - 'can't you see what you are doing' - while keeping score is amazing. Talk about 'according to their own experiences'. We don't see the same admonishment given earlier for their reasons. I was trying to 'open their eyes' but they will have none of it unless it favors their agenda. And make their own stories - with their 'yeah, buts... and we have no idea' earlier in the thread.

They have no idea why he was sick but had no problem running off and using that Scripture for their agenda. No meditation on their part and that's called rightly dividing the word for them.

"But when he asks, he must believe and NOT doubt because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does."

With their mindset they pray in DOUBT. "If it be your will" - demonstrating have no idea what the will of God is. "I am the Lord that heals you" and "By My Stripes you were healed" means nothing to them - they DOUBT in their heart the very words of God.

"From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it." Matt 11:12

Enjoy your day as the Joy of The Lord is your strength! We won't find it here but lots of strife and bitterness and insults!

[presently no screen name]

She obviously had enough faith that God could and did heal her to go off her medications.

YOU are assuming that God told her to get off her meds - aren't you?

You CAN’T make those judgments about her without taking the role of judge and jury.

I'm NOT but you obviously are. She believed, she came off her meds, yada yada.

Since no charismatic is going to blame God for not healing her, then the blame obviously falls on her,

Get this one thing straight - God is NEVER wrong, we are. Drop the pride and you might understand that.

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[MarkBsnr]

I do not have bitterness and resentment, but neither am I going to sit back and watch believers get pummeled over their lack of healing, therefore lack of faith, by those who think they have all the pat answers. Those days are gone for me. I've been on the receiving end of that judgment and condemnation and no more for me or for anyone else.

Very good viewpoint.