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Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)
I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.
Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …
… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)
I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?
Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.
But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.
Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)
One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.
Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?
False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.
The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.
These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.
Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.
The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.
The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…
At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!
Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!
“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.
Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,
When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)
The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.
“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.
Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !
Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)
Which word in the following line is not understandable?
It has NOTHING to do with AGREEMENT/DISAGREEMENT.
???
Incredible.
Now, now. You're forgetting your European religious history. Remember the "Diet of Worms"?
(And the way this thread is going, I'm waiting with bated breath for the "Defenestration of Prague". Watch where you land!)
Cheers!
LOL.
LUB
IIRC,
There’s a case or 3 in Christ’s ministry in the Gospels and maybe one or two in Paul’s.
I don’t have the refs and don’t care to bother searching them out. I know there are at least some examples in the NT.
And,
imho,
IF anyone thinks that John Wimber was on the dark side
they are simply ignorant of the man
ignorant of his ministry
and
ignorant of the facts.
Except that what bb quoted was......"There is no biblical basis for the notion that demons are free to cause illnesses outside the context of full demon possession. [And the power of Satan to enter and "possess" souls uninvited; i.e., at the whim of the demon, was ended at Christ's resurrection.]
Sometimes they were permitted by God to do so, but in the cases you mentioned, Gods' hand was in those. Nor were the examples of demons causing illness.
LOL!!!!
I agree with you that perhaps we shouldn't be following the Corinthian Church ("there is a kind of immorality among you not even found among the pagans, that a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Shouldn't you rather mourn? etc.")
BUT -- regarding "Paul only wrote to Corinth about tongues"; I say with Garfield the Cat, "Big, Fat, Hairy Deal." The Pauline epistles (ducking arguments on pseudepigraphy for conciseness) are those of exhortation and reproof: that is, for each church, he is correcting their errors. Look for example at Galatians who felt they had to obey the Mosaic Laws to attain salvation: but avoiding their mistake doesn't mean we are called to anomie.
Secondly, if you are going to claim that the presence / absence of the fruit, or of chaos, etc., means the gifts in that same group of people are necessarily false -- do you then deny that the tongues and other manifestations in Corinth are thereby demonic, on those grounds alone? And if not, by what rule *do* you distinguish true actions of the Holy Spirit from demonic deception, or people faking it under pressure or excitement, or even taking what is at base the Holy Spirit but adding a lot of their own efforts to it?
Cheers!
Cheers!
imho,
I am ignorant
to the extent
that I never heard of his name outside of this thread.
nolo contendre (or is it comprendre?)
Cheers!
INDEED.
THX.
This book blessed my socks off in several spiritually enriching ways. Wonderful, precious and vintage Wimber:
EVERYONE GETS TO PLAY
DITTO THIS ONE:
THE WAY IN IS THE WAY ON
http://www.amazon.com/Way-John-Wimber/dp/0974882577/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330579914&sr=1-4
I think one was finished or written by his wife and the other by his daughter after he died from a fall in the shower. I laughed when I heard how he’d died. I think he must have found it humorous, as well.
I met him when he was on a ministry trip to Taipei. I guarded him while he was waiting to speak. I’d watched a lot of his videos so I knew his personality well already. It was great to see in person that he was the same down-to-earth, anointed, Spirit-filled, VERY REAL, high integrity person that his videos show so well.
He’s probably the pastor of my generation—sort of—that I respect most in all the world. I like Billy Graham highly as well but I think John demonstrated more of the New Testament Biblical model than Billy did.
I haven’t read this one yet:
THE WAY IT WAS.
I suspect a lot of the same info was in the 16 part or some such video series I watched of him. He’s funny naturally. Loved that series. Wish I had it on DVD. They stopped releasing it for a while.
I think this was one of his earliest books:
POWER EVANGELISM
There were some trashy nonsense mentions of Bethel in California upthread.
Some of the most anointed books I’ve read in my life are these by Bethel’s Kris Vollotton—I haven’t finished them quite yet. Reading too many good books at one time. LOL:
SUPERNATURAL WAYS OF ROYALTY
DEVELOPING A SUPERNATURAL LIFESTYLE: A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO A LIFE OF SIGNS, WONDERS AND MIRACLES
This one looks very good but I haven’t gotten far into it yet:
THE SUPERNATURAL POWER OF FORGIVENESS: DISCOVER HOW TO ESCAPE YOUR PRISON OF PAIN AND UNLOCK A LIFE OF FREEDOM
One of the things I love about Bethel is that they take their students in their Bible school and send them out to practice what they teach in the real world on the street and in other public places . . . speaking into people’s lives prophetic words of knowledge; praying for the sick etc. and they see miracles routinely in such efforts.
Then they critique what happened when they get back to the school and keep at it until the students mostly get it right routinely. I love that hands on training and mentoring.
And I love the fact that God will be rejoicing with such folks who ‘jump out of the boat’ toward Jesus and His ways while the rock throwers are still busy looking for another bucket of rocks and another 24 rationalizations for avoiding the Biblical model.
I don't recall that anyone said that those things don't happen today, that there are no miracles. It's what's passed off as the gifts today that we take exception to. The teaching on them is not Scripturally solid, the practice of them for the most part does not follow scriptural instruction, they especially tongues, are used as signs to believers, which Paul clearly and specifically says they're not- they are signs to unbelievers, there is no follow up on prophesies to see if they come to pass and the person doing the prophesying is a true prophet by being accurate 100% of the time, and the fruit of the Spirit is too often not even talked about or mentioned, and yet Jesus says that by their FRUIT we shall know them.
God can certainly heal and have someone speak in tongues as needed, but that is different from it being the norm in the church.
Secondly, if you are going to claim that the presence / absence of the fruit, or of chaos, etc., means the gifts in that same group of people are necessarily false -- do you then deny that the tongues and other manifestations in Corinth are thereby demonic, on those grounds alone?
That's a very interesting question. I don't know how they were practiced by that church and so can't make any judgment as to their authenticity. But since the gifts were known to be operative in those days, my guess is that there was a much higher likelihood that they were authentic. However, all Paul addresses is how to exercise the gifts correctly, not what they were doing wrong.
And if not, by what rule *do* you distinguish true actions of the Holy Spirit from demonic deception, or people faking it under pressure or excitement, or even taking what is at base the Holy Spirit but adding a lot of their own efforts to it?
Whether it is practiced in accord with direction in 1 Corinthians 14.
The practice of the gifts needs to line up with Scriptural instruction. Any practice of gifts that doesn't ought to be immediately suspect and be investigated further and that would include looking at the life of the person practicing the gifts.
Yes, God can use people who have sin in their lives, as we all do, but when there's blatant fraud and immorality, and unbiblical teaching, then I wouldn't trust them to be correct on this one issue when they're wrong on so much else, just because I happen to like that area. IOW, just because I might believe tongues are for today, doesn't mean I should accept someone like Benny Hinn's teaching on tongues as being correct when the rest of what he teaches is off base. If everything else someone is teaching/practicing is wrong, then tongues must be suspect as well, even if it's my favorite gift.
One of the things that I see is that it would be extremely difficult for someone who has spoken in tongues to admit that the experience wasn't a genuine Holy Spirit one, that they were faking it or deceived, because then they'd have to admit that they were deceived and that's not an easy thing to admit to. Nobody wants to admit that they were that susceptible to deception or peer pressure. That would be quite a blow to their pride.
Once they were set aside, the Gospel of the grace of God is preached to the nations without racial priorities (Eph. 2:11-22; 3:6), without miracles, signs, and wonders (I've already listed Scriptures above) and without legal ceremonies (noted above).
BUT NOW, the believer, as soon as he accepts the Gospel of the Grace of God, by faith, is IMMEDIATELY Spirit-baptized into the invisible and universal body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, and the believer is blessed with all spiritual blessing in heavenly places. (Eph. 1:3).
So what about the middle part of Acts, from Acts 10 until Israel is set aside? Paul had a commission of CONFIRMATION. He preached to the Jews concerning Jesus, the promised Messiah (Acts 13:14-41; 18:5; 26:22, 28:23). THIS is why Paul went to the Jew FIRST (Romans 1:16 with Acts 13:5,14,46). And THIS is why signs, wonders and miracles accompanied Paul's ministry. "Because of the Jews" (Acts 16:3). That does NOT mean that Gentiles that were saved were not privy to those same signs during this time (Corinthians proves this), but BECAUSE God had not set Israel aside yet, "because of the Jews" signs were present in the church.
Secondly, Paul had a ministry of REVELATION. Paul preached the unsearchable riches of Christ (Eph. 3:8. "unsearchable meaning unprophesied, they could not be found in Scripture, they were a MYSTERY, hid in God, until revealed to Paul). The ministry of reconciliation by grace alone (Eph. 2:8-9). This means that Paul preached the fellowship of the mystery. (Eph. 3:9). And the rest is the "But Now" history of the Church the Body of Christ, right up to this point and ultimately to the point that Christ returns for the Church the Body of Christ and we are raptured.
And that's what Acts is about. The RISE of Israel, Acts 1-3, the continued rejection of Christ as her Messiah, the raising up of Paul to CONFIRM PROPHECY concerning Israel and REVEAL REVELATIONS OF THE MYSTERY from Christ to believers who would form a NEW creation, a NEW MAN, the Church the Body of Christ, and the FALL of Israel. There is now neither Jew nor Greek in the Body. If there is no Jew, there are no signs, since signs were for them, for confirmation. It really is that simple. God Bless! smvoice
To those in the congregation, the lavish lifestyles of their ministers are PROOF to them that God is blessing them and is leading them.... It's a rare person who looks around and says "Wait a minute. SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE. WHERE is the Gospel and why isn't it being preached?" You were one. Cynical Bear was one. I was one. I'm sure there are others here, and God Bless each one who got into His Word and realized that INDEED SOMETHING IS WRONG.
Ephesians 1:15-23 15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
Ephesians 3:14-21 14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
Philippians 1:9-11 9 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
Colossians 1:9-12 9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.
There are two reasons why Paul prays for us to be strengthened by or with power. They are...
-(Ephesians 3) ... so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
and
- (Colossians 1) ...for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father...
Note that it is NOT for displays of power or signs or wanders or any such thing.
“wonders”
Proof-reading is my friend, proof-reading is my friend, ......
Actually, not. It's a nice concise summary of what you and others have been saying all along and I'm saving it for future reference.
THANK YOU.
Slain in the Spirit is just nonsense...and most often hypnotic gestures used by the healer well known to those who are familiar with hypnotists....
However we do not see any of this practiced or even hinted in the Scripture..... When the Spirit came upon Jesus at His baptism He came up out of the water; He didn’t collapse and sink down!
Jesus had power to heal even the worst cases of disease, blindness and crippled limbs, and yet no one who Jesus ever touched fell over “slain.”..... Nor do we find Peter or John touching people and causing them to fall over..... They did not ask other disciples to stand behind those they were going to lay hands on, to catch them as they toppled backward by the power...... no people lining up waiting for the “anointing” to be passed on from another, not even the Apostles.
Can you picture any of the Apostles running up to people and slapping them on the forehead, or lining people up to be slain?...... No soft music or repetitive choruses were sung to set an atmosphere for the anointing to fall...... No one yelled repetitive phrases like, “Fire!” or “touch” or “More, Lord!”
Many fell backwards in Scripture,.... but it was not a blessing!
1 Samuel 4:18: .....Eli fell off his seat ‘backwards’ on hearing of the death of his sons and the capture of the Ark and he died.
Isaiah 28:13... the prophet speaks of God’s Word sent to refresh, but if not heard it became a judgment... “that they may go and stumble backward, and be broken.”..
In all these examples it is a judgment, not a blessing!
1 Samuel 28:20 .... Saul immediately collapsed full length” on the ground upon hearing of his impending death from Samuel after consulting the witch of Endor.
In Ezekiel 1:28 and 2:1 ...The prophet overwhelmed by the vision he saw and falls forward in worship..... Those who are holy fall forward,conscious submission to God’s Holy presence... Theydo notbecome dazed and confused, as in some spirit services today.
Those who are enemies fall backward when confronted with God’s true power.
Philippians 2 says every knee will bow.... Those who are conscious of who they serve bow forward, willingly and fully conscious..... Those who fall backward overwhelmed, show a lack of submission, and rebellion.
Daniel, in 10:4-11 ....encountered a powerful angel and said, ...“I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale, and I was helpless... I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.” ....Daniel fell ‘on his face’; he fell forward. ......This was not without purpose. Daniel, a prophet, was receiving revelation that would become Scripture..
Since in the Old Testament those who were affected in this manner ‘were not born again’, indwelt permanently by the Holy Spirit, this experience cannot be used as normative for the Church today.
In examples from either the Old Testament or the New, the men affected did not have a permanent indwelling of the Spirit..... When the soldiers came to arrest Jesus, in John 18:4-6 He reveals His power in a unique way. He identified himself to the soldiers who were arresting him and they “drew back and fell to the ground.”...
... Jesus first revealed Himself by saying His divine name, “I Am,” making it clear who it is they came for. When He identified Himself to them, they fell to the ground in judgment. These pagan sinners did fall — ‘backwards’.
They did not experience revelation or receive an anointing, or conversion, they got right back up and arrested Jesus. ....There was no change in them; they were still enemies of Jesus..... Also, none of Jesus’ followers fell down during the arrest.....
Certainly none of this represents a pattern for the Church. Those who practice the artful ritual of being “slain in the Spirit” today deny or ignore these Biblical facts in order to embrace an experience that is not endorsed in the whole New Testament.
Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum comments on the use of animal behavior:
“Daniel four, where God made Nebuchadnezzar act like an ox...... Here, again, the Lord’s action here was not a blessing for Nebuchadnezzar, but, rather, a judgment on an unbeliever who saw himself as a god.... In other words, from a purely biblical perspective, people acting like animals is not a sign of any divine blessing from God; on the contrary,.... if God is involved at all in such an event,... it is a sign of judgment...... But the fact is that God is not involved at all, Satan is probably involved to a great measure .
There are many pagan religious practices, such as “shakti-pat” by Hindu gurus, which when observed looks exactly like being “slain in the Spirit.”.... The only difference is that their practices came first, preceding the modern Pentecostal practice.... The cults also describe the Spirit as a force and or power.
Whenever the flesh is involved, it becomes trained to the feelings and sensations it experiences..... For example, if one is an alcoholic or drug user, they get hooked on the feeling of looseness and euphoria long before they become chemically dependent..... When people put down their defenses and believe that it is God who is touching them, they are training themselves for this particular sensation or feeling and will become expectant that this is what it feels like when God is there........ The presence of laughing, incoherence, and paralysis is the exact opposite of the fruit of the Spirit which exhibits self control and sober-mindedness..... The person with the fruit of the Spirit does not succumb to the excessive behaviors.
The fruit of the Spirit is self-control.
(authur unknown)
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