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Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)
I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.
Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …
… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)
I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?
Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.
But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.
Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)
One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.
Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?
False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.
The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.
These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.
Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.
The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.
The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…
At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!
Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!
“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.
Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,
When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)
The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.
“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.
Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !
Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)
Too true.
Nevertheless, the enemy would love us to throw out the baby with the bath water.
My curiosity would be . . .
what % of such transitions, changes, shifts on the part of how many people
are psychological, emotional, sociological
vs
theological, spiritual.
*************
Back in the day--
I was plodding along with low expectations for the traditional American denominational way of "easy (western) Christianity" --
You know... the four-speed four-door well-marked high-speed expressway to Heaven...
...singing and smiling and picnicking at my leisure along the way...
**********
Our mutual friend sent me home from a conference with a very personal prayer assignment-- and when God answered my heart-cry in that season... It was Christ's calling on my life...
I knew the remainder of my faith journey would require a steep climb--not an easy path; with many risks-- no crowded expressways... no picnic basket...
I also learned that the long distance between "calling" and "commission" was the high road of maturity in Christ's character--and the fruit and power of the Holy Spirit--
Yup... ruined...
...And I wouldn't have it any other way.
Hope this explains...
His grace and peace be with you every step of the way!
So are the Spiritual Gifts actually active today or not? All that I have ever witnessed, especially by these Charismatic types, have always been emotional frauds. They celebrate false prophets and false prophecy, and they hate you when you challenge them.
My conclusion, as a result of all of this, was “blessed are they who have not seen, and yet still believed”. They are focused on “seeing” God, but not on serving Him.
So what is the conclusion here regarding spiritual gifts? Is such a thing as prophecy, healing, or whatnot, active in this day and age? I tend to think not.
Understand.
Congrats. Congrats.
LUB
Joel
Acts 2
I Cor 12-14
should answer such questions for anyone used to taking God at His Word . . .
Given the Power of Holy Spirit, certainly satan has a huge investment in counterfeiting and tarnishing the real thing.
Those who PRESS-IN to God personally know the validity.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
He’s also not about to leave satan with all the supernatural manifestations in this END TIMES period.
However, He tends to do things HIS WAY, AND HIS TIMING and in contexts of His choosing.
And, He seems to like to slice catty wumpus across mortals prissy expectations.
**I have a much greater insight into spiritual truth, with a much greater illumination and understanding into the things of God.**
Has this greater illumination and understanding led you to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins? That’s how people’s sins are remitted according to Jesus and his ordained apostles.
I was raised in a rural, bible study intense, protestant church with much in common with southern baptists, except for sprinkling vs immersion (and like baptists, it was just ‘an outward sign of an inward cleasing’, which is about as anti Acts 2:38 as one can get). Yet, I knew there had to be more to believing; an experience had to be out there. But, my leaders could not testify of something they had yet to experience themselves.
So when I saw the Acts 2 message, and how it culminated in vs 38 and 39, I knew that it was truth, and I had been missing it.
It’s the fulfilling of Jesus command, just as he had told Nicodemas to be born of the water and the Spirit. Just as the Lord said “He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned” (They that don’t believe in His baptism are also unbelievers).
It’s strait and it is narrow and few there be that find it.
Lord bless
quix, am I guilty of “haughty judgment” ? Is that what you are saying? Are we not to be Bereans?
And sadly, that's what happens. Because of people like that and the excesses done, people then react by rejecting all the gifts or some of them. There's very little balance and what I've noticed is that the number of people who are really familiar with how the gifts are to be exercised as laid out in 1 Corinthians 12 & 14 are precious few.
Then what gifts ought to be asked for, and how does one go about asking?
**Given the Power of Holy Spirit, certainly satan has a huge investment in counterfeiting and tarnishing the real thing.**
And the devil was most likely busy before sundown on Pentecost, transforming himself into ‘an angel of light’. Paul spoke of it as a present tense threat...”Satan...IS transformed..”.
He’s tireless, even using our ‘fearless leader’ (cough) to quote Jesus concerning the sharing with others, yet still endorsing the killing of the unborn. Satan’s had thousands of years to trick man in every way imaginable. Thankfully his time is about up.
We should “Desire all of the spiritual gifts”, but that also involves truly understanding them, for that is where much of the spiritual confusion comes from, an inadequate understanding of the nature of spiritual gifts as the New Testament defines them.Furthermore, we should “desire spiritual gifts”not so much as individual properties but for the edification of the Body.
I tend to think that they are active in this day and age but not nearly to the degree that many claim.
The Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is shallow. It pays too much attention to its own traditions and not enough to Scripture, too much to the Holy Spirit and not enough about Jesus, too much on the gifts and not enough on the fruit, too much about manifesting power and gifts and not enough manifesting Christ, too much on what they can get out of it in experience and not enough on how they can serve others and lead them to Christ.
HIMSELF
by A. B. Simpson
Once it was the blessing, Now it is the Lord;
Once it was the feeling, Now it is His Word.
Once His gifts I wanted, Now the Giver own;
Once I sought for healing, Now Himself alone.
Once ‘twas painful trying, Now ‘tis perfect trust;
Once a half salvation, Now the uttermost.
Once ‘twas ceaseless holding, Now He holds me fast;
Once ‘twas constant drifting, Now my anchor’s cast.
Once ‘twas busy planning, Now ‘tis trustful prayer;
Once ‘twas anxious caring, Now He has the care.
Once ‘twas what I wanted, Now what Jesus says;
Once ‘twas constant asking, Now ‘tis ceaseless praise.
Once it was my working, His it hence shall be;
Once I tried to use Him, Now He uses me.
Once the power I wanted, Now the Mighty One;
Once for self I labored, Now for Him alone.
Once I hoped in Jesus, Now I know He’s mine;
Once my lamps were dying, Now they brightly shine.
Once for death I waited, Now His coming hail;
And my hopes are anchored, Safe within the vail.
There is no command in Scripture anywhere that I can think of where the gifts are to be asked for.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
What gifts each believer is to receive is the HOLY SPIRIT'S choice, not ours.
That is where I see the MAJOR problem in the Pentecostal movement, the huge emphasis on tongues, the least of the gifts, and its misapplication and use.
“People are too busy seeking the Spirit, the power, the healing, tongues, whatever manifestation du jour they hear about and not seeking Christ alone, the author and finisher of our faith.”
Yes, some folks are just like Simon Magus, except they don’t even have the courtesy of offering a bribe.
That link about ‘soaking anointing’ was disturbing.
That was one of my major problems with them as well. I suspect that tongues is emphasized because it is the easiest one to fake, and because they claim that it doesn’t have to be an actual Earthly language.
I do see lots of scripture in favor of spiritual gifts being still active, and not ceasing; however, I just don’t think they’re the real deal. I also suspect a great deal of gifts... are gifts like wisdom, ability to teach the Gospel, things of that nature. Things that aren’t flashy like, for example, calling fire down form heaven, but just as valid as the gifts of prophecy or any of the ones they covet.
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