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Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)
I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.
Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …
… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)
I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?
Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.
But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.
Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)
One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.
Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?
False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.
The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.
These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.
Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.
The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.
The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…
At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!
Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!
“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.
Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,
When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)
The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.
“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.
Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !
Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)
It's not a matter of pride, quix. It's a matter of not having strong enough Scriptural support from them to back up what they're telling me I must do for them to consider me spiritual.
My misunderstanding about the point with the kids. One of the problems I've discovered with posting is that my thoughts don't come across, only my words, so often the point I was making isn't understood correctly.
Look, while I recognize that verse, it does NOT say that praying in tongues = praying in the Spirit.
Do you think that someone can pray in the Spirit without speaking in tongues? Does Scripture state anywhere that praying is tongues is more effective or powerful than praying in one’s native language?
I am a die hard individualist. If someone can show me something out of Scripture that is verified in two to three places and is clear in its interpretation, and I am convinced that God is telling me something or expecting something out of me, then it’s a no-brainer.
If someone is telling me I have to do something that is not a moral issue but a matter of social convention or traditions of men over Scripture, then I will dig my heels in and fight if faster than anyone else you know. I will NOT do something just because everyone else is doing it and if anyone expects me to, then they’d better have really good Scriptural support for it or they can forget it.
The evidence of the Spirit filled life is walking in the Spirit, living the life of Christ as outlined in the Bible. It’s producing the fruit of the Spirit in one’s life as stated in Galatians 5. It’s having the mind of Christ in all things.
It is not praying or speaking in tongues.
Plenty true.
That sort of thing abounds all over Christendom in one form or another.
You are likely aware how many RC’s do not consider either one of us spiritual . . . unless it’s the negative kind.
We consider the sources and go on, usually.
It’s important that Jesus knows we walk as spiritually close to Him in His Spirit more or less as we know how to do.
The opinions of others on that score are a trap, as Scripture says—a snare.
We’ll rarely please many on such scores. Well, you may well please a cast of thousands but I know at 65 that I won’t.
I see tongues as a tool, an aid . . . a gift, yes. But one available to all who ask and then walk it out in faith. Sometimes God confirms with Holy Spirit goose bumps and ‘electricity’ and usually not. I still walk it out in faith as He taught me to. And the results are His doing and business . . . though thankfully, He brings them along often enough.
Prayer is a tool, an aid, a communication, a gift as well.
as are a list of good things that assist us in our walk with The Lord. None are designed to be worshiped or pedestalized.
imho.
Thanks for your kind reply.
I don’t think y’all have understood my bit about humility.
LETTING GO of
obsessive !!!!CONTROL!!!!
and of pride
ENOUGH to ‘jabber gibberish’ in front of God and everyone
takes SOME humility. To persist in humility is also a point of spiritual growth. And, I still think that’s ONE of the reasons God set it up—given His priority on humility.
AND, I think it takes a willingness to surrender that most offensive body part—our tongue—to gibberish and trust Holy Spirit IN FAITH to convey the meaning—is ALSO a way to sideline our MENTAL NOISE and MENTAL intrusiveness into the communication between our spirits and God.
AND, I think that’s the only way that God can get us to be COMPLIANT, SUBMISSIVE AND COOPERATIVE enough to speak in another known language 100% at His anointing if and when He decides to do that. Otherwise, we’d be trying to control our mouth and voice apparatus so much He’d have to hog-tie us to get it done.
imho.
I think I understand your feelings and perspective.
Certainly the FRUIT OF HOLY SPIRIT
ARE BY FAR
THE HIGHER PRIORITY.
Just please know this is not a personal attack on anyone. Metmom, you and I have discussed these things before and you know what my feelings are regarding this, and why. I've just never discussed them openly with others.
Let me get my thoughts together along with Scripture, and I'll be back. I just wanted to let you all know that I've not shirked my responsibility to respond. God Bless :)
When were they written by Paul? 1 Cor. was written about 59AD. 2 Cor. was written about 60AD. BOTH were written BEFORE the close of the Acts period. Specifically, Acts 28, when Israel was blinded and set aside. (Galatians was also written during this time, 58AD, as were 1 and 2 Thess., both in 54 AD., and Romans, 60AD). Why is this important? Because God was still dealing with Israel as a nation, until He blinds her and sets her aside, they become "lo Ammi", "not my people", at the close of Acts. Acts 28:25-29.
As long as He was dealing with Israel, miracles, signs, and wonders abounded. Even among Gentile members of the body of Christ. Why? "Ye men of ISRAEL, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man APPROVED OF GOD AMONG YOU BY MIRACLES AND WONDERS AND SIGNS, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know." Acts 2:22.
This is why Paul writes to the Romans that "Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision..to CONFIRM the promises made unto the fathers" Rom. 15:8.
All written before Israel is finally set aside.
"The Jews REQUIRE a SIGN" 1 Cor. 1:22. Of course there would be miracles, signs, and wonders BEFORE Israel is blinded. Even among the Gentiles in the body of Christ.
The question is, did they continue, or did they stop after the close of the Book of Acts? If so, when, and why?
Cessationism is unsupported by Scripture—not a microscopic shred of support is in Scripture.
The world, the flesh and the devil have NOT changed.
God has NOT changed
Mankind has NOT changed
The devil’s strategies and methods have NOT changed in any essential terms.
To repeat:
Uhhhhhhhhh hello? Is it your impression that demons and demonic demonstrations have been on vacation the last 2000 years?
Is it your impression that Christians have been expected to battle demonic forces IN THEIR FLESH?
Is it your impression that Christians are called to wage war with principalities & powers in high places spiritually neutered with their portion of Holy Spirit’s miraculous potency in the closet or ‘gone fishing?’
That’s definitely NOT my Biblical understanding by a great long shot.
And that’s DEFINITELY NOT BEEN MY EXPERIENCE either. It has frequently taken all the praying in tongues, praying for healing; praying for supernatural assistance of various types etc. to do whatever God was calling me to do in various situations.
Given the lawlessness and massive demonic forces unleashed uniquely in the END TIMES, THE GIFTS OF HOLY SPIRIT ARE DESPERATELY NEEDED FAR MORE NOW THAN EVER IN HISTORY—INCLUDING IN THE ACTS 2 ERA.
Scripture teaches we are to walk IN HIS SPIRIT, IN HIS BLOOD, IN HIS ABUNDANT LIFE, IN HIS HEALING, IN HIS EMPOWERING, IN HIS SUPERNATURAL GUIDANCE, IN HIS SUPERNATURAL PROVISION . . . SILVER AND GOLD HAVE I NONE—IN THE NAME OF JESUS—GET UP AND WALK . . . THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE . . .
!NOW!
That Scripture does NOT SAY “shall follow them that believe after they get to Heaven.”
Who needs such in heaven??? Sigh.
There’s no need for healing there!
There’s no need for supernatural provision there.
There’s no need for a banquet in the presence of our enemies there.
There’s no need for supernatural guidance there.
There’s no need to add rebelliously to Revelation or anything else in Scripture AS ENSCRIPTURATED SCRIPTURE.
However,
IF
Cessationists were CONSISTENT on that score—their churches would never ever hear another sermon. All they’d do is stand up and read Scripture to one another. And if they had anything to say to one another, they’d just quote Bible verses to one another.
Thanks for your kind reply.
Blessings,
It is a pile of rationalizations from . . .
comforting human comfort zones . . .
particularly humans who
LOVE to be IN !!!CONTROL!!!
and who are not all that thrilled with a supernatural God who does things HIS way, HIS timing, with HIS surprises . . . unless they are in a bind requiring a miracle and then their theology tends to become a LOT more flexible in a hurry.
Do you think that someone can pray in the Spirit without speaking in tongues? Does Scripture state anywhere that praying is tongues is more effective or powerful than praying in one’s native language?
Those verses, indicate to me, . . . and I’d think to anyone fair-mindedly considering the language of the text . . . THAT
Paul was equating—essentially saying—that in that context—praying in The Spirit was praying in tongues. That is the simple INESCAPABLE LANGUAGE of those verses. Ask an atheist linguist for a POSSIBLY unbiased perspective.
Do I believe that one can “pray In The Spirit” and not be praying in tongues? Yes, actually, I do.
But that’s A DIFFERENT DEFINITION OF TERMS
than ST PAUL WAS USING in those verses.
take your time.
I don’t believe that when Corinthians was written has a single thing to do with the issue.
That’s like concocting some jury-rigged pile of postulations to pretend that Mary ascended bodily into Heaven etc., to me.
Paul was clearly laying out in Corinthians what he considered
NORMATIVE PROPER CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR IN THE CHRISTIAN GROUPS AND MEETINGS FOR THE ENTIRE CHURCH ERA.
I can’t really imagine how anyone could logically pretend anything else.
I know some do. I find it irrational and preposterous.
It's a battle between the truth of God's word to bring men to faith in Christ and the lies of the enemy to keep men from faith in Christ.
(This is me now, not the other guy) The battleground is in the heart and mind. Satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they don't know the truth. Our job is to bear witness to the truth. The truth is found in Scripture, in *It is written....*
That is all we need now. I agree that the signs that accompanied the early church believers to validate the message they were preaching are not necessary because now we have the completed canon of Scripture.
I do not believe that they have ceased altogether but are not so preeminent.
The problem I have with the whole tongues and signs movement is that people are using them as indicators of validity of a Spiritual experience without going to Scripture. By depending on them to validate some experience or teaching, it will be too easy for people to be led astray by counterfeits or fakes because they then won't be checking the teaching against Scripture but rather against the number of *signs* and experiences.
When someone gets to the point of saying *Wow, that really was from God* because of some show, like speaking in tongues being involved, they are in grave danger of being deceived because they are depending on the wrong criteria to check the teaching or experience against.
Of course Satan has not been on vacation the last 2,000, but what are the weapons of our spiritual warfare?
2 Corinthians 10:3-6 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
Ephesians 6:13-18 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
The weapon listed is the word.
The gifts are for the edification of the body, not for spiritual warfare. The word and prayer are for the warfare.
You can add a third earthly witness to your pronouncements, I find them quite Biblical and well expressed. Thank you.
Sorry.
I don’t buy it.
Certainly we need discernment; to pray for discernment; teach discernment.
HOWEVER,
that line of thinking essentially says that
GOD DIDN’T KNOW WHAT HE WAS SAYING AND DOING
in terms of Holy Spirit giftings and spiritual warfare.
That somehow, God got HIS priorities all messed up.
GOD established the gifts
FOR FULLY EQUIPING THE SAINTS
FOR
drum roll
SPIRITUAL WARFARE AND THE SPREAD OF THE GOSPEL.
THESE SIGNS
SHALL
FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE.
If they don’t, there’s something wrong with the belief or the practice of the belief.
GOD SAID THAT. NOT JOHN WIMBER—GOD ALMIGHTY.
AND HE MEANT IT.
Missionaries on the mission field find folks much more attuned to such realities . . . THEY KNOW what spiritual warfare with demonic forces is like. They are EXCEEDINGLY READY AND DESPERATE FOR
A POWER ENCOUNTER in John Wimber’s terms.
They want RID of the demonic forces from their person and from their families and from their villages.
Sure, the WORD is essential in all that.
So is discernment. So is miracles. So is healing.
The witch doctor engineers a healing counterfeit.
What is the Christian supposed to do? Say a few ‘hail Mary’s’, or recite a few Scriptures in a wimpy voice, shrug his shoulders and walk wimpily away with a hang-dog look, embarrassed over such a neutered response?
Desperate tribal and other people in undevloped countries NEED PRACTICAL, TANGIBLE ANSWERS AND SOLUTIONS.
They are NOT INTERESTED in theological excuses explaining how God can’t or won’t act supernaturally in their behalf in this era.
The whole idea that Holy Spirit goes around in our era muffled and in a straight jacket ONLY SERVES SATAN AND HIS KINGDOM
NOT THE CHURCH MILITANT!
NOT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!
FOR EXAMPLE:
1. By a WORD OF KNOWLEDGE, one knows where the key demonized person in the village is.
2. By a WORD OF KNOWLEDGE, one knows what the root of the demonization is
3. By a WORD OF KNOWLEDGE, one knows what the root of the disease is or the block to healing or how to pray specifically for healing.
4. By a WORD OF KNOWLEDGE, one knows how to prepare in advance for an attack by the witchdoctors of a competing tribe.
5. By a prophetic declaration, the attacking enemy is laid bare and neutralized before they do any damage.
6. By a prophetic declaration, a parent is emboldened to wage successful spiritual warfare over a child in a distant location.
etc. etc.
I can attest to that as well. I had a family member whose wife had the "gift of tongues" and they went to a church where it was encouraged. This man could never "get it" like they all tried to pray he would. Then one night, he said, he woke up and he was "speaking in tongues"! I would visit them in their home and if his wife and I discussed the issue at all - he knew I did not agree with them - he would come in and demand we stop or else I would not be welcome in his home again. I had never condemned them nor did his wife and I argue (that's not my style) but it was clear he did not want to even hear anything that might make him think.
Today this couple is divorced, the husband has gone the exact opposite direction from the Lord and no longer has any relationship with Him or other believers. This so-called gift made NO difference in his life and, instead, caused him to lose whatever faith he had.
I believe far too much emphasis is placed on this one gift alone - one that Paul said was the least of them - and the use they had in the first century after Christ is rarely if ever the same use today. Instead it is a club of superiority placed over a believer's head insisting that true worship of God and effectual, fervent prayer is impossible without it. Well, I say BALONEY! It was NEVER that back then and it definitely is not today. Those who worship God must do so in spirit AND truth. And whatever is not of faith, is sin.
Paul calls the Corinthians UN-spiritual babes (1 Cor. 3:1) and sternly rebuked them for their carnality, for their "envying, and strife and divisions" (1 Cor. 3:3), for the immorality (1 Cor. 5:1), for their dishonesty and oppression of each other (1 Cor. 6:7,8), for their unfaithfulness in giving (1 Cor. 9:11-14), for the selfishness and pride (1 Cor. 11:21,22), and said to them: "And YE are puffed up, and have not rather mourned!" (1 Cor. 5:2, cf. 4:18).
YET this SAME Corinthian church, at this SAME time, ABOUNDED in miraculous gifts (1 Cor. 1:7, 12:8-11, 14:12,18,26).
This alone is proof that the miracles, signs and wonders had a reason for existence that had to do with another explanation than "proper Christian behavior in the Christian groups and meeting for the entire Church Era".
The offer of the kingdom, made at Pentecost by Peter, was not OFFICIALLY withdrawn until Acts 28:28. This means it was normal that miracles, signs and wonders would exist until that time. They were miraculous confirmations of Christ's kingdom rights and were given to confirm these rights.
When Israel was set aside, there was no longer any need of this, and the later epistles of Paul do not even recognize such gifts as being in order. He tells the Corinthians in his first letter to them that their miraculous powers were to be withdrawn: 1 Cor. 13:8. It was the GIFTS of prophecy, tongues and knowledge that were to be "done away." NOT that supernatural predictions would fail to come true, nor that men would stop talking or knowing.
It is the supernatural GIFTS and DEMONSTRATIONS that were to be done away. Miracles are being performed all about us constantly. But while God may miraculously heal the sick, according to HIS WILL, He does NOT use "divine healers" to accomplish this.
If a person is determined to go down that road, what about the Roman Catholic Church and her exorcisms and miracles signs and wonders? Or the Unity Movement? Or the Christian Scientists, and others who claim healing powers can present "evidences" as fully convincing. Are their powers, then, also God-given? And where do you go in Scripture to PROVE that yours is and theirs is not?
There is something better than these gifts that were bestowed on the early church. We are "blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places" (Eph. 1:3). Sometimes it is through our INFIRMITIES that we are drawn closer to God. 2 Cor. 12:9,10.
"My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness" (2 Cor. 12:9).
We are all on equal standing now before God. He chooses WHAT HE will do as He WILLS. Not because of "divine healers" or "being slayed in the spirit" or any of a number of things meant for a reason, but no longer needed as confirmation.
I don't imagine that it takes a lot of discernment to figure out who the chief demon possessed person in a village is, nor does it take special revelation in how to deal with it. Scripture already gives us the tools for dealing with stuff like that.
According to Curry Blake, neither does it matter what the root of disease or the blocks to healing are. We ought to be prepared in advance to deal with stuff like that, not wait until we get there. If we are in Christ and living as we ought, then we will recognize that stuff when we see it and know how to deal with it as it crosses our paths.
The problem I have with depending on *words of knowledge* is that we are then in the position of depending on the spiritual integrity of the person who is claiming to have the word of knowledge, that they are walking with Christ and filled with the Spirit and that it's not some demon trying to sidetrack us and lead us astray.
The big danger I see in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is too much willingness to accept at face value everything that anyone says is from God. It's like if someone dares to question the source when another claims *God told me....*, then they're questioning God and in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit instead of exercising discernment.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
And Satan will use wonders and signs to deceive the very elect, if possible, which could only apply is someone were looking to signs and wonders instead of Scripture, for validation of experience.
I agree 100%! Jesus said to judge others by their fruit - the fruit of the Spirit - He never said to judge others by whatever they claimed their "gift" was. In fact, he specifically said to test the spirits to know what sort they are. How else are we to do that than by Holy Scripture and the indwelling Spirit, himself, within us?
. . . but it was clear he did not want to even hear anything that might make him think.
Oh? How was that determined? What evidence fueled such an ASSUMPTION . . .an assumption that SOUNDS more than a little judgmental.
Today this couple is divorced, the husband has gone the exact opposite direction from the Lord and no longer has any relationship with Him or other believers. This so-called gift made NO difference in his life and, instead, caused him to lose whatever faith he had.
1. More assumptions.
2. I assume you are aware of many dozens of things that likely contributed to the divorce.
3. I don’t know of ANY SCRIPTURE declaring that the BIBLICAL GIFT of tongues IS a guaranteed preventative against divorce. Do you?
4. What’s the evidence that the BIBLICAL GIFT of tongues “CAUSED him to lose whatever faith he had?”
5. As opposed to the BIBLICAL GIFT of tongues being INSUFFICIENT to prevent divorce and loss of faith?
6. Sounds like a horrific DOUBLE STANDARD, to me.
A) On the one hand, the BIBLICAL GIFT of tongues is castigated as NOTHING and certainly NOTHING GOOD
B) Then in a flash, the BIBLICAL GIFT of tongues is castigated because it was not MIRACULOUS ENOUGH to save a bloke’s faith or marriage. Which is it—is tongues TOO EVIL and NOTHING or NOT MIRACULOUS ENOUGH?
C) And how is it that somehow A BIBLICAL GIFT OF HOLY SPIRIT IS NOW DESCRIBED AS EVIL? That’s a hazardous assertion to ascribe ANYTHING of Holy Spirit to evil or evil to Holy Spirit.
I believe far too much emphasis is placed on this one gift alone - one that Paul said was the least of them –
How many more hundred lines of text is necessary to beat this dead horse? I’VE ALWAYS AGREED THAT SOME FOLKS DO THAT! SHEESH! Argue that point with someone who disagrees with you on it! Sigh. Sounds like there’s an agenda born out of intense emotional pique over the issue out of personal angst from specific relationships. If so, then DEAL WITH IT BIBLICALLY IN THAT CONTEXT! Sheesh!
I’ve been at my church about 6-8 years. I’ve NEVER SEEN NOR HEARD of such a case in this local congregation. If one cropped up, the Pastor would slap it down in a flash.
and the use they had in the first century after Christ is rarely if ever the same use today.
Welllllllll, evidently there’s been a horrifically inadequate job of data collection. However, extending the benefit of the doubt, PLEASE, SHOW US THE STATISTICS AND HOW THE DATA WAS COLLECTED.
Instead it is a club of superiority placed over a believer's head insisting that true worship of God and effectual, fervent prayer is impossible without it.
More of the same dead horse. YES. SOME folks act and sound that way.
However, not in my church. And not in ANY of the healthy Pentecostal/charismatic churches I’ve been in, in the last 50 years. I’ve ran across individuals with such attitudes but in those churches, they got SET RIGHT—RIGHT QUICK.
Well, I say BALONEY! It was NEVER that back then and it definitely is not today. Those who worship God must do so in spirit AND truth. And whatever is not of faith, is sin.
Ok.
AND what AUTHENTIC BIBLICAL GIFT OF TONGUES IS OF FAITH AND BIBLICAL AND EDIFIES THE PERSON AND/OR THE CONGREGATION AND IS OF HOLY SPIRIT—DESERVES TO BE ENCOURAGED, SUPPORTED, APPLAUDED, PRAISED GOD OVER.
Perhaps y’all have a plan to begin doing that which I’m unaware of.
I doubt Holy Spirit is impressed when folks take their personal pique, angst, hang-ups over HIS GIFTS out on HIM AND HIS GIFTS.
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