Saul And The Charismatics...

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

And folks who refuse to hear the Holy Spirit inspired Holy Scriptures about their "favorite" gift tend to also get other doctrines wrong, too.

Where is the evidence that I refuse to hear Holy Spirit inspired Holy Scriptures about anything? Where is the evidence that tongues is my ‘favorite’ gift? Neither applies to me.

Why is there such a fierce defense of tongues?

I’ll tell you, Dear Sister in Christ. When I see no one else standing up for a valid Biblical Gifting of Holy Spirit greatly useful in these end times, I’m willing to step in the gap.

HOLY SCRIPTURE DECLARES GOD’S ATTITUDE ABOUT TONGUES:

I COR 14:
5 I wish you could all speak in tongues,

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.

.

I know from Scripture AND from experience that tongues ARE authentic gifts of Holy Spirit for anointed use in our era.

I also know that because God uses them—particularly initially—to tweak up folks’ humility—that satan is particularly doubly eager to trash them every way he can.

I’m happy to support something of Holy Spirit he’s so intent on corrupting, counterfeiting and trashing.

Even to the point of accusing fellow Christians - who agree on ALL the major tenets of the Christian faith - as being pawns of Satan or in league with the enemies of Christ?

Wellllll . . . I prefer to avoid accusing loved ones of anything negative. However, love also, in my construction on reality, includes being candid about loved ones in error or headed for a ditch.

And when folks seem to be gratuitously taking potshots at an authentic gift of Holy Spirit—without anyone standing up to be counted in behalf of Holy Spirit’s work—then I’ll be glad & honored to do it.

There is something strange going on whenever this oneissue is in dispute and it tells me that those caught up in it are held hostage by their experiences.

Nonsense, in my case. I consider it, Biblically, a secondary priority but an authentic gifting of Holy Spirit of significant potency in behalf of The Kingdom.

The vigor and zealousness comes from so many on Holy Spirit’s side seeming to be so comfortable taking pot-shots at an authentic gift of Holy Spirit.

When I spoke about judging experiences by Scripture rather than the other way around, what I so earnestly wanted to communicate is that, no matter what our experiences are, are we able to stand back from them and see them objectively in the light of God's word? Apparently, some can't.

True. Some can’t. Not my problem.

Seems to me some have so much mystifying hostility to an authentic gifting of Holy Spirit that THEY can’t stand back and see them objectively in the light of God’s Word.

If someone claimed to have the gift of healing, wouldn't their experiences prove to them and others if, that was indeed their gift, it was genuine?

Of course.

Now, I know that alleged "faith healers" have fabricated and faked healings in order to dupe supporters but, if I came to them for physical healing from, say, blindness, wouldn't I know if I had truly been healed? If I could go from darkness to clear vision because of their laying hands upon me, then I could verify that had happened.

Of course.

Yet, how many of these charlatans have huge "revivals" and tent meetings and people line up 2 blocks long to be healed and they go away disheartened because they went away no better than they came? Their faith is blamed for why they weren't healed instead of who really is to blame - the false teacher giving false hope.

Sadly horribly true.

Thankfully, Curry Blake is greatly different:

http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Healing/JGL/JGL_Ministries.htm

Great teaching and practice . . . and humorous as well.

Why is it that these same teachers also claim other gifts such as "slaying people in the Spirit", giving them the gift of tongues, "holy laughter" and other things that are nowhere found in Scripture that are showy and heap praise upon the preacher rather than the Lord?

Some such are hokey; some aren’t. Some are counterfeit; some aren’t. Some such are demonic; some aren’t.

Mostly, I agree with you on such scores—particularly about exalting a teacher rather than The Lord.

In the same way, tongues can be and are used as a badge of spirituality when Paul said it was the least of the gifts and the others should more earnestly be desired. The Corinthians were admonished by Paul because they were doing just that and his corrections to them were NOT to praise them but to get them to see the seriousness of seeking after glory that belongs to God alone.

Of course tongues can be so used. So can preaching. So can teaching. So can healing. So can prophecy.

Yes, Paul gave the Corinthians stern exhortations about the abuses. HOWEVER, THEY WERE GETTING THINGS DONE VIA HOLY SPIRIT’S GIFTS—which was more than some other groups. LOL.

Will there be an outpouring of the Spirit in the last days? Yes, Scripture says so. But does this mean He will do that in ways that the devil can fake? I do not believe He will.

I don’t know that God’s criteria is things that the devil can or can’t fake. Some things he can and many things he can’t fake—just as in Moses day. God’s criteria is to do what He wants to do—period.

Will the two witnesses and the 144,000 be given supernatural abilities to lead people to the Messiah? Absolutely! But this will not be a time where it will need to be faked in order to convince people simply because it will be REAL!

There seems to be an implication that Holy Spirit’s giftings today are extremely rarely real. I don’t find that true. It depends on where one looks. We have healings routinely in our congregation. We have authentic prophetic ‘words’ in our congregation that are borne out later or by those receiving such.

Signs and wonders WILL happen in those last days - to me, that is speaking of the Tribulation - but we are not there yet. And God will not allow Satan to counterfeit his power - it will be impossible for him to do so anyway. Everything Satan ever did was try to imitate God and every time he failed. He will ALWAYS fail. God's gifts are genuine. But they are HIS to give and to remove when their purpose is fulfilled and when he says that certain ones HAVE BEEN, I accept that no matter what my experiences may say.

There’s no Biblical basis for asserting that God is holding Holy Spirit’s giftings in the closet until Tribulation. None.

Certainly the giftings are for God’s purposes and to glorify Jesus. Certainly satan will always ultimately fail.

However, leading up to the Tribulation and during the Tribulation—there may be some interesting Mt Carmel type confrontations between God’s agents and satan’s.

I think, usually, it will be no contest—particularly for those with discernment—to know who’s manifestations belong to whom . . . and who’s winning. Certainly that’s to be the case, ultimately.

Thanks for your kind reply. I respect you and care for you.

Again,.....

1 Corinthians 14:22 So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.

And yet here we have believers by the churchful claim that tongues is the sign of the filling of the Holy Spirit to and for believers. It's become a status symbol for the have's compared to the have not's; a matter of spiritual pride.

Tongues is NOT a sign for believers. Those who claim so are wrong because they are contradicting the clear teaching of Scripture. Also, there is not ONE verse of Scripture anywhere that says that tongues is the sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that it's meant to be or be used as a prayer language, or that there's any more power in praying in tongues than praying in one's native language. It's all based on experience, ie traditions of men.

1 Corinthians 14:13-19 13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

In addition is the wrong teaching that every believer should have the gift of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:11 All these (gifts) are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

When a gift given to believers for the edification of the church becomes a status symbol, it's well past time to reevaluate what the church is teaching.

Additionally, Curry Blake has very unorthodox teaching on signs. That is that they are meant to validate or verify the message of the gospel of the kingdom, therefore what we've been doing, practicing them within the church, is wrong. They need to be being practiced out in the world before unbelievers to confirm the message we bear. (A very brief summary).

There is danger in accepting EVERYTHING as from God all in the name of nor wanting to reject what really is from God. But I agree with bb here. What God does will stand the test. For my part, I don't accept what I see on television as genuine because there is simply no way of knowing or verifying it.

I find the lifestyles, some of the teaching, and many of the methods of most of the so-called charismatic evangelists absolutely unScriptural, therefore I feel no obligation to believe that the miracles and tongues they claim are genuine.

You folks probably hold Romans 10:9 and 13 as pillars in your message of salvation, along with Acts 16:31 and John 3:16.

Romans, like the other epistles, was written to believers, ‘those called to be saints’. They already knew about being ‘born of the water and the Spirit’, and that ‘he that believeth (no comma in the KJV) and is baptized shall be saved. And a clear confirming of those folks faith was addressed in Rom. 6 by Paul, who alluded to their being “buried with him in baptism into death” (that’s not Holy Ghost baptism, for the Spirit is not death but life). A few verses later Paul joyfully says to these church members:

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being THEN made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.” vrss 17,18.

Right after Acts 16:31, the keeper of the prison, and his household, was taught the word of the Lord and was baptized straightway. (doesn’t say ‘water’, but doesn’t say Spirit baptism either. It may have been both. But, per scriptures, Paul baptized folks in Corinth and Ephesus.

John 3:16 is a concluding statement of what the Lord spoke of in the previous words to Nicodemas.

To believe on Jesus, you have to believe on him ‘as the scripture hath said’, which includes his words.

But, you choose for baptism to mean water baptism when it is unavoidablely so (as the eunuch was plainly baptized in water), and not to be water baptism (as your interpretation of John 3:5) when convenient for your theology.

The eunuch is actually a perfect example of the Lord’s “believeth and is baptized” command.

Nicodemas, upon wondering how to be born of flesh again (”enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?”), was corrected by the Lord, who made it clear that the second birth is not natural (”that which is flesh is flesh”) but a spiritual birth; “born of the water (no comma) and of the Spirit”.

He goes on to explain the supernatural phenomenom of hearing one receive the Spirit in vs 8. He says it is that way for EVERY ONE that is BORN of the Spirit.

The Lord’s commissions (all of them are great commissions, by the way) all point to Acts 2:38,39, and his prophecies pointed there as well (i.e. John 3:8; 7:38,39).

You all say I am imposing works, when I am saying I’m following his and his apostles words (remember his prayer that people would believe on him according to THEIR words).

By Faith:

-Able offered unto God..
-Enoch...pleased God..
-Noah....moved with fear, prepared an ark
-Abraham, when he was called to GO....WENT..
-Sara received strength to conceive seed. (She probably was eating right, no doubt.)
-Isaac blessed Jacob..
-Jacob ..blessed both his sons..
-Joseph made commandment concerning his bones (Faithful in the promise of God taking his people out of Egpyt in the future)
-Moses was hid by his parents..
-Moses ...kept the passover..
they (the children of Israel) passed through the Red sea.. (they were baptised unto Moses in the cloud [no comma] and in the sea. excellent type and shadow of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38,39)
-the walls of Jericho fell down...compassed
-Rahab...received the spies

The OT heroes of faith offered animal sacrifices, as well as many works of faith, as the above list points out. We have been given the opportunity to experience, by His blood, this ‘new and living way’ We live in physical bodies, and faith in God’s ordinaces require physical effort. That’s God’s will.

Yes, Matt. 28:19, Mark 16:16, and Luke 24:47 all harmonize with Acts 2:38.

**You’re adding to the proper understanding of God’s word.**

Your opinion. You say that water baptism in the NAME (that’s key) of Jesus is not for the remission of sins. Then my opinion is that you folks are deleteing from the proper understanding of God’s word.

I’ll be glad to keep the discussion going as time permits.
Lord bless.

All those Old Testament heroes demonstrated their faith by their deeds, of course, just as James speaks about showing our faith by our works BUT Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. He was declared righteous BEFORE he offered Isaac upon the altar in obedience to God. Rahab acted upon her faith when she hid Joshua and the other spies in Jericho, but it was by her faith that she was declared righteous. Genuine, new birth faith ALWAYS results in a changed life because the Holy Spirit takes up residence when faith is first exercised. The ordinance of baptism is also an act of obedience but faith MUST precede it and it is faith that brings righteousness. Paul only baptized a few people in water and he said to the Corinthians, "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius" (I Cor. 1:14) because he didn't want anyone to brag about being baptized by Paul. Strange thing for an Apostle to say if water baptism is what causes the remission of sins, isn't it?

And, BTW, I DO hold to Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:13 isn't too bad either, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 16:31 is Scripture, too "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Certainly the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." My particular favorite is John 10:27-30, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

You can go on believing it was your water baptism that was the moment you were saved and your sins were remitted, that your faith alone is not sufficient to save you - regardless what Scripture says. You can certainly go on holding that your obedience to all God's commandments keep you saved but just remember this, we are saved through God's grace BY faith and grace means unmerited and undeserved so if anything else must be added onto faith, it can no longer be through grace that we are saved.

Do you also believe that you can lose your salvation if you fail to keep all God's commandments or if you do not confess all your sins before you die? Is eternal life still a gift then if you have to earn it? Go back and read Hebrews chapter 11 again, I think you may have missed the point. Have a good night.

4. The distinction between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God is a moot one relative to the issues related to Cessationism. Slick dodge, though.

It is not moot and it is no dodge -- sorry you couldn't grasp the concept. Just helping you to navigate as to which Kingdom is the one that will be on the earth's surface when Jesus returns after the Tribulation. It will not be the Kingdom of God (which is not of this world ="kosmos"). It will be the Kingdom of Heaven, reconstituted and instituted, therefore it will not be perfect inasmuch as it will contain humans who still are infected with sin (but will not be permitted to engage in sinning (not until, that is, that their father is released from bondage for a short time and they rebel).

5. The fact remains . . . The coming Kingdom of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is a most plausible focus of the I Cor 13 mention of “when that which is perfect comes.”

You've published a lot of opinions not backed up by Bible facts. Please give me the Scriptural exegesis for your assumptions that leads directly to your conclusions, and which is compatible to the broader context.

The commands of The Christ is that His disciplers were to make disciples, who through maturation would then become disciplers for the next generation of disciples, successively through hundreds of generations of this method down to our time.

The purpose of a discipler is to have engrafted enough of the Scripture to draw a disciple's attention to the teaching of the Holy Spirit through the correct handling of that Precious Infallible Holy Word; and be under enough control of the Holy Spirit (infilled) to impart the instruction with both absolute precision and selfless love, despite resistance and rejection of false prophets and false doctrine. (Mt. 28:18-20, 2 Tim. 2:1-2, Phil. 3:17-19, 3 Jn. 9-11 for starters)

It is clear that life-long discipling is absolutely necessary in Christ's operations of the churches -- and that knowing the mind of The Christ would not be a bootstrap operation of an individual operating outside of the sphere of discipling. If one is trying to be a "self-taught" Biblicist, that would be contrary to the system that was decreed, set up, and practiced in the New Testament churches --as practiced by The Christ directly with His own disciples, and as a mechanism and a model to them.

Unhappily, though, this "self-taught" paradigm has spread throughout Christendom, "charismatic" or otherwise, and has supplanted prolonged personally supervised Biblical discipleship as God's principal method for bringing spiritual maturity by which The Faith is spread and implemented.

Such self-taught individuals, being undiscipled, seem to invariably produce incorrect doctrine (2 Pet. 3:15-18, where "unlearned" or "untaught" means "undiscipled"). One such variation is the false doctrine of "the perfect" (where perfect = finished, completed, mature, fully-formed, of full age) being something else than the complete, full, and now closed progressive revelation of His Word. That Word which is completely available to mankind now is completely sufficient for both imparting The Faith, and instructing in every phase of obedient practice.

- Today, a word of wisdom apart from that which already exists in the Word would make the Word imperfect (and it is not). A believer-disciple who can digest "strong meat" (Heb. 5:14) can discern both good and evil, when guided by the Holy Ghost speaking through the Word of Righteousness, is sufficient to find God's Will in a situation as The Spirit gives wisdom of application. Since the arrival of the completion of revelation, another word of knowledge cannot surpass it.

- Today, if there were inspired prophecy (and there is not) which could add to that which is already given, it would falsify the concept of the completion of revelation. But since it cannot, it would be redundant.

- Today, an unearthly tongue cannot move a soul more greatly to repentance and belief than the Holy Spirit's conviction spoken from the pages of The Bible, especially when on the tongue of a full-aged teacher/evangelist who is under the control of the Spirit. Neither can it improve a believer's practical maturity than when engaged in rightly dividing the Word of The Truth does.

- Discerning of spirits is not produced by some unevenly distributed talent outside that produced by Biblical maturity. Discernment is based on knowing the scope of that which The Holy Ghost has already revealed and which the mature disciple has exercised.

- Today, there is no forcing of the instant healing of a physical wound, infection, or debility on demand by, say, laying on of hands or slapping on the forehead. That kind of result is claimed but rarely, if ever, experienced; it is anecdotal and always seems to be reported but not judicially provable (though it is true that doctors provide the "hospitable" conditions, but The God applies the healing).

Without arguing or debating, it is my belief that the gospel characteristics of the so-called "charismatic renewal" is incorrect according to the Holy Scriptures, so it is another gospel of a different kind. What this practice seems to be is an attempt to short-circuit the otherwise lengthy experiential process of growth toward spiritual maturity developed through extended discipling and application. The claim by "charismatic" practitioners is that instant wisdom, knowledge, healing etc. can somehow be magically summoned on demand without obedience to Christ's commands to know the truth. Instant spirituality didn't work for the apostles. They had to impart spiritual development by progressive teaching (1 Thess 2:2,15), followed up by implementation of that teaching and rejecting an alternate doctrine.

In actuality, newborn spiritual infants today do need milk (1 Peter 2:2), the Word of The God (they do not need practice in glossolalia or divination by waiting for unlearned and untaught knowledge to suddenly appear)! But the corollary is that every one that useth milk (alone) is unskilful in the Word of Righteousness, for he(she) is a (spiritual) babe -- no matter what the chronological age or education. They have yet not been discipled through the newborn babe stage (brephos)(1 Pet 2:2); the infant (naypios)(Heb. 5:12-13) stage; the children stage (paidion)(1 Jn 2:13c); of which at that point have not yet brought acceptable fitness to instruct others in The Faith. They think they can lean on their own understanding.

The "strong meat" belongs to them that are grown up in the Lord--are of full age--who by reason of using Scripture (not infant-church gifts which have now ceased of themselves, vanished, been replaced by the perfect completed revealed Word of God), can discern by careful application. These are the ones who have graduated to the young adult (neaniskos)(1 Jn. 2:13b, 14b) stage, and then, through continued study and application grow into the fatherhood/elderhood final wise counselorship quality.

You will note that the ones displaying adulthood have overcome the Wicked One, and it is the Word of God (not charismatic gifts stated) that abides strongly in them. They will also be strong in administrations (pastors and ruling elders), operations (teachers and deacons), and evangelists, who can successfully wield the Sword of the Spirit, the "hrema" = spoken Word of God (Eph. 6:17b; Rom. 10:8,17), while controlling their mouth and its written products (Jas. 3:1,5,8,10).

The problem here is that today, Spiritually-awakened (converted but not regenerated) seekers may come into the assembly, desiring growth; but in the wrong company become sidetracked into seeking instant spirituality promised through acquisition of gifts described as active in the first-century (but which are in fact no longer available to them), thus leading to frustration and disbelief.

These gifts helped confirm The Lord's proclamation of The Kingdoms to them that saw and heard Him. They also helped confirm their testimony to the ones who had not seen or heard Jesus--all according to His Own Will. This special exercise of the gifts produced the "teleo" = finalizing (perfection) of The Truth in its final unrolling. But upon The Completion, the elements that produced the final Fruit, those elements (supernatural signs, wonders, and miracles gifts from the Spirit, Founding Apostles, Inspired Prophets) could no longer improve on The Perfection, and hence were dismissed. Therefore they disappeared, once the Greatest Gift of The God was now in the hands of the churches.

If one draws a seeker into trying to possess gifts they are not to seek after, gifts that are now not available, gifts which were always dispensed by the Will of the Spirit, not ours. they will be doing that instead of seeking after The Faith (1 Tim. 1:5) and The Scriptures which produce salvation (1 Tim. 3:16), and spiritual maturity through engrafted Scripture (Jas. 1:25). Faked gifts cannot produce this.

The sign of abiding in the Vine is that the fruit of disciples is more disciples (Jn. 15:8, 16)! The fruit of the Spirit is the character of The Christ formed in the regenerated believer-disciple, progressively visible and achievable through greater submission to the control of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18-21, Gal. 5:24-26,Phil. 2:3-8). Seeking after dead "giftedness" will only produce, at the best, dead branches; and at the worst, dead souls afire forever; whereas in whom the generative seed, the Holy Word would have produced gestating and new-born souls into the Kingdom of The God. What a tragedy.

6. You might consider returning to your disciple. Seems to me some things in your theology were left undone or need a tune up or overhaul. Though I'd suggest finding one more Biblically grounded, this time.

As a matter of fact, I did exactly what you suggested, excepting the pejorative part. I have within the last hour called my discipler, Dr. Fred Wittman, and run the exchanges and this counsel to him verbatim. His pronouncement was that my comment here is precise and thorough, and completely within limits of the context of the whole Bible. That's two earthly witnesses. But it is also the Spirit witnessing with my spirit, and his spirit--but apparently not with your spirit.

Apparently my theology engine seems to be well tuned up, firing on all 3 cylinders for the Word of His Power (Heb, 1:3), and rolling well on Route 66. This road includes the section through Romans, and the ground is not only Biblical, it is the theme of the whole Bible. (It's so hard to be humble, isn't it?)

Just for the record, though, is it the indwelling Holy Ghost that is furnishing the tone of your responses, is it your current discipler, or is it just -- your spirit? This is not an attack, just a request for sourcing. It would be nice to know to whom to attribute your answers and "corrections." Is it the Holy Ghost that is teaching you to vilify both myself and the one missionary, discipler, and servant of The God, who has precisely translated the New Testament, toward which he has dedicated many years? Living without salary and other work, trusting in the Lord's provision? And through the Happy Heralds site giving you sound counsel? Freely?

(This is me asking these questions, but God does not seem to be putting brakes on--I hope I am not disappointing Him in contending for The Faith. But blame me for putting it this way. I'm not approaching you sidewise.)

Thank you for demonstrating your stage of erudition and graciousness! It will be remembered -- in prayer for your vision and growth.

(Gal. 6:1-5)

1 Corinthians 14:22 So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.

Sigh.

YET AGAIN I’ve agreed with several of y’all’s points. And YET AGAIN y’all have refused to agree with a single one of my Biblical points. Fascinating. Talk about spiritual pride! Sheesh.

As I documented above—Paul made clear that TONGUES WITH INTERPRETATION was equivalent to prophecy—WHICH WAS A SIGN TO BELIEVERS and unbelievers as well, actually.

Yes, AS I NOTED ABOVE, humans have a capacity to even turn something God sends for humility into an occasion for pride. I agreed. Which part of the Scripture below is unclear?

I Cor 14: 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves {a case of tongues edifying a believer—the one speaking!},

but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
I COR 14 NLT:
5 I wish you could all speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened.
22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying [or the prophecy equivalent of tongues with interpretation as Paul made clear above in verse 5], they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

.

Folks can go on REJECTING SCRIPTURE on that score, if they choose. I don’t recommend it. I obviously didn’t write the Scripture, GOD DID. Take it up with HIM.

Tongues is NOT a sign for believers.

As I documented above from Corinthians, WHEN accompanied by interpretation, IT IS a sign for believers as the equivalent to prophetic words.

Those who claim so are wrong because they are contradicting the clear teaching of Scripture. Also, there is not ONE verse of Scripture anywhere that says that tongues is the sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit,

Nonsense. Have you ripped I Cor 12-14 out of your Bible? What do you think tongues have to do with—a spicy taco? Where do you think tongues come from, if not Holy Spirit? Are you presuming to edit God’s list of Gifts of Holy Spirit? Are you insisting that 100% of all manifestations labeled “tongues” are of satan? That’s a very eternally hazardous assertion, if so.

It sounds like that y’all are telling Holy Spirit that HE GOOFED when He distributed & distributes tongues in the body of believers . . . just because some abuse tongues and use it as an occasion for spiritual pride.

Welllllllllll, la T Da! Let’s just get rid of everything other Biblical Holy Spirit gifting that perverse humans use as an occasion for spiritual pride! Why stop with tongues!

We’ll have to also throw out:

--discernment—plenty of folks get prideful and smug about their Holy Spirit gifted discernment.
--scholarship and study of God’s Word. LOTS of folks get prideful, arrogant about that.
--gift of healing—plenty get prideful about that
--gift of wisdom—few seem to get arrogant about that but probably a few do here and there, so toss it out.
--gift of knowledge—plenty get prideful about that. Toss it out.
--gift of powerful faith. Some get prideful over that. Toss it out.
--gift of miracles. Goodness—plenty get prideful over that. Toss it out.
--gift of prophecy. Lots get prideful over that. Toss it out.
. . .
Better send Holy Spirit a notorized snail mail that He totally erred and blew it when He distributed & distributes spiritual gifts since our pride totally neuters and destroys their usefulness. /sarcasm

What unmitigated balderdash. Do y’all think through your convictions on such scores further than your noses—AT ALL?

Also, there is not ONE verse of Scripture anywhere that says that tongues is … meant to be or be used as a prayer language,

WRONG again.

2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues,[a] you will be talking only to God, [MOST folks consider that PRAYING] since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit,[b] but it will all be mysterious. . . . 4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, . . . 14 For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is PRAYING, but I don’t understand what I am saying.

15 Well then, what shall I do? I will PRAY in the spirit,[e] and I will also pray in words I understand.

.

Y’all can DENY and refuse to believe the Scriptures above about PRAYING IN HOLY SPIRIT until the cows come home, until Jesus comes. I don’t recommend it.

or that there's any more power in praying in tongues than praying in one's native language. It's all based on experience, ie traditions of men.

Y’all can DENY and refuse to believe the Scriptures above about the added benefit and clout spiritually from praying on tongues until Jesus comes. I don’t recommend it. If there was no added, extra benefit, Paul would not have noted:

I COR 14:
5 I wish you could all speak in tongues,

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.

.

Y’all can tear those words out of every Bible y’all have. It won’t change The Word of God. And it won’t change God’s expectation that you apply EVEN THAT PART of The Word of God to your own spiritual lives—at least in understanding and support thereof.

In addition is the wrong teaching that every believer should have the gift of tongues.

I suppose it depends on what “should” means. However, I’ll take St Paul’s convictions on the matter over yours.

I COR 14:
5 I wish you could all speak in tongues,

Y’all can DENY that’s part of THE WORD OF GOD 24/7. I don’t recommend it.

1 Corinthians 12:11 All these (gifts) are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

I totally agree.

And, individuals and the Church in general live far below what Holy Spirit WOULD DO in terms of spiritual gifts—IF individuals were more submissive TO HIM on such matters.

When a gift given to believers for the edification of the church becomes a status symbol, it's well past time to reevaluate what the church is teaching.

TRUE. Why single out tongues on that score? THAT’S TRUE about a LONG LIST of status symbol stuff as I illustrated above.

I believe it is BECAUSE tongues is MORE offensive to folks’ pride—one way or another.

I don’t believe Curry would insist on STOPPING their operation IN the church. He just rightfully insists they MORE belong out on the street where they’ll have more impact for The Gospel.

Reasonable enough. Personally, I prefer to avoid throwing out the baby with the bath water. However, if that’s y’all’s favorite hobby—help yourselves. Y’all can take it and the consequences of such a habit up with Holy Spirit and The Lord Jesus later.

Who’s asking you to believe in something that is not genuine? Not me!

What’s wrong with some discernment. Is y’all’s discernment so anemic that EVERYTHING is ALWAYS 100% black or 100% white?

Do y’all have NO capacity to spit out the bones?

How on earth did you ever raise any kids? Did you smack them silly over everything less than perfect?

Sigh.

Are you insisting that 100% of all manifestations labeled “tongues” are of satan? That’s a very eternally hazardous assertion, if so.

Are you insisting that 100% of all tongues IS from God? That is likewise a hazardous assertion.

I know of people who wanted to be filled with the Holy Spirit and went forward for prayer and the people praying wouldn't let them go until they *spoke* in tongues, so after more than 20 minutes of being prayed for, they started *speaking* in tongues (aka faking it) just to get everyone to back off and let them go. And then everyone was happy because they all thought that the person had spoken in tongues and had been baptized (filled) in the Holy Spirit.

And not all times people speak in tongues is there an interpretation, and even then, you have to know somehow, that the interpretation is accurate.

There is not one recorded instance of Jesus speaking in tongues, and there still are no verses which say that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit. When people ask me if I've been filled with the Holy Spirit, what they are asking is whether or not I've spoken in tongues. And when I tell them I have been without tongues, they don't accept it.

I don't doubt for one minute that God can give people the gift of tongues, but don't tell me I HAVE to and don't try to tell me I have to believe something about it which has no Scriptural backing; and that is, that it's a prayer language and has some sort of special power in prayer that my praying in English does not.

There is not one verse of Scripture that says that praying in tongues is praying in the Spirit.

And don't even go there about my kids...... For the record, all three of my kids who have been raised with the same theology on tongues and miracles as I have, are all walking with Christ in vibrant relationship with Him. They seek His will and pray about major life decisions such as where to live, where to go to school, WHO TO MARRY (yes, my son wasn't going to do even that without God's direction), what job to take, etc. They have been effective witnesses for Him and led friends to Christ. And their views on tongues are the same as mine and not one of them has spoken in tongues. Imagine that.

None of us are discounting miracles and genuine works of God. What we are discounting is errant teaching about the gifts, particularly tongues, as it is being presented in the church today. Too much traditions of men and not enough Scriptural backing. Too much emphasis on the least of the gifts and too much attention on the person doing the speaking.

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