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To: daniel1212
>> Re Luke 22:24: The Lord here is not rejecting authority,<<

I would contend that He was at least to the extent that there was to be no hierarchy (ie rulership) within the church. I find it interesting that you haven’t given any passage that outlines any hierarchy. That is of course because there is none. The church as Jesus set it up has no hierarchy or rulership other than Him. Here are some thoughts on the verses you sited.

1 Timothy 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

That was referencing strictly secular leadership.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

There is no hierarchy (ie secular type rulers) in the church. All stewardshipo positions mentioned are the “servant” type positions. All Greek words used indicate those responsible for teaching etc are those who are older (elder) more mature in the faith. Even when a difference is to be taken to “the church” it means to be taken to the “group of believers” as a whole rather than to some “ruler” or “headship” if you will.

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

That lines up with the Christ is the head of the husband and the husband is head of the wife. There can be no assumption of leadership within the church from that.

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

2 Tim. 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

All believers are given that directive.

1,742 posted on 01/19/2012 4:14:00 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
I find it interesting that you haven’t given any passage that outlines any hierarchy. ..There is no hierarchy (ie secular type rulers) in the church

An outline is not needed, as the fact that there are positions of authority evidences they had authority over someone.

As referenced, "Obey [peithō=to assent, yield to, comply with, listen to...] them that have the rule over [hēgeomai=chief, governor, chief, account, leadership..] you, and submit [hupeikō=yield] yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. " (Hebrews 13:17, cf. 7,24)

The word for "rule over" is the same as used for "chief" in Luk 22:26: But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve."

Even if you make the words for "obey," "submit" and "rule" to signify something less less authoritarian then they convey, here you still have two classes of souls, one of which is enjoined to yield to another, even though such submission is conditional upon submission to God and Scripture

"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. " (Hebrews 13:7)

Here again one class is leading, and another following leader who sacrificial served Christ (likely martyrs).

"Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you. " (Hebrews 13:24)

All stewardship positions mentioned are the “servant” type positions.

Certainly it does, and Jesus was the greatest, but you are disallowing being a servant from being a leader and having (conditional) authority over something and someone. You are defining hierarchy to mean more than it basically does, that of organization of people in which their are different positions. You cannot disallow leadership, which certainly was in the N.T. church.

The apostles certainly had spiritual and positional authority under God in the church, and thus they disciplined souls and threatened to use their spiritual rod of correction on false leadership and those disobedient to Scripture.(1Cor. 4:18-21; 2cor. 13:2-4

And being a pastor has less authority than the above, and true authority does not rest on formal decent but conformity to Scripture and its requirements for such, yet they were pastors overseeing a flock, serving God and others by pastoring. (1Pt. 5:2)

"And God hath set some in the church, first [prōton=first; beginning] apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers.." (1 Corinthians 12:28)

That lines up with the Christ is the head of the husband and the husband is head of the wife. There can be no assumption of leadership within the church from that.

No presumption, but having bishops [episkopos=superintendent; overseer] certainly assumes there is a class of souls to oversee. The point is that if they are leaders then their is leadership and thus there are followers.

And pastoring the home is an example of pastoring a church. "..if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Timothy 3:5) There is a balance here, and i hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

1,743 posted on 01/19/2012 7:59:15 PM PST by daniel1212 (Our sinful deeds condemn us, but Christ's death and resurrection gains salvation. Repent +Believe)
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