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To: CynicalBear
I find it interesting that you haven’t given any passage that outlines any hierarchy. ..There is no hierarchy (ie secular type rulers) in the church

An outline is not needed, as the fact that there are positions of authority evidences they had authority over someone.

As referenced, "Obey [peithō=to assent, yield to, comply with, listen to...] them that have the rule over [hēgeomai=chief, governor, chief, account, leadership..] you, and submit [hupeikō=yield] yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. " (Hebrews 13:17, cf. 7,24)

The word for "rule over" is the same as used for "chief" in Luk 22:26: But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve."

Even if you make the words for "obey," "submit" and "rule" to signify something less less authoritarian then they convey, here you still have two classes of souls, one of which is enjoined to yield to another, even though such submission is conditional upon submission to God and Scripture

"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. " (Hebrews 13:7)

Here again one class is leading, and another following leader who sacrificial served Christ (likely martyrs).

"Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you. " (Hebrews 13:24)

All stewardship positions mentioned are the “servant” type positions.

Certainly it does, and Jesus was the greatest, but you are disallowing being a servant from being a leader and having (conditional) authority over something and someone. You are defining hierarchy to mean more than it basically does, that of organization of people in which their are different positions. You cannot disallow leadership, which certainly was in the N.T. church.

The apostles certainly had spiritual and positional authority under God in the church, and thus they disciplined souls and threatened to use their spiritual rod of correction on false leadership and those disobedient to Scripture.(1Cor. 4:18-21; 2cor. 13:2-4

And being a pastor has less authority than the above, and true authority does not rest on formal decent but conformity to Scripture and its requirements for such, yet they were pastors overseeing a flock, serving God and others by pastoring. (1Pt. 5:2)

"And God hath set some in the church, first [prōton=first; beginning] apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers.." (1 Corinthians 12:28)

That lines up with the Christ is the head of the husband and the husband is head of the wife. There can be no assumption of leadership within the church from that.

No presumption, but having bishops [episkopos=superintendent; overseer] certainly assumes there is a class of souls to oversee. The point is that if they are leaders then their is leadership and thus there are followers.

And pastoring the home is an example of pastoring a church. "..if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Timothy 3:5) There is a balance here, and i hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

1,743 posted on 01/19/2012 7:59:15 PM PST by daniel1212 (Our sinful deeds condemn us, but Christ's death and resurrection gains salvation. Repent +Believe)
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To: daniel1212
>>An outline is not needed, as the fact that there are positions of authority evidences they had authority over someone.<<

Yes there was in reference to the secular world we live in but not in the “church”.

>>and thus they disciplined souls and threatened to use their spiritual rod of correction on false leadership and those disobedient to Scripture. (1Cor. 4:18-21)<<

You certainly read that differently than I do. Look at what Paul says.

1 Corinthians 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church. 18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. 21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

The entire passage starting in the previous chapter is a dispute about who is supposed to be a leader or who has power and authority. He begins in Chapter 3 mentioning the contention that some say they believe one man is the leader and others say another man is leader. Then in Chapter 4 he begins with this.

1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

He calls them “stewards”, someone who is responsible for maintaining the purity of “the mysteries of God”. He’s not claiming authority over people but simply the responsibility of maintaining the purity of the Gospel. He then continues to show that they are not to think in terms of “authority” over people.

6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

There was obviously a problem already with people trying to establish a hierarchy of “authority” over people. Paul was saying that’s not the way it’s supposed to be. He then tells who actually has the power.

20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

The “authority” and “power” is not in the man or leader but in God. The “leadership” is only a “steward” of that “purity of the word” handed down from God. I believe the statement that you contend shows Paul believes gives them “authority” or “leadership” is actually a statement questioning whether the Corinthians actually want a hierarchy which is not authorized and contrary to what the church is to be or if they should come in “the spirit of love, and in the spirit of meekness” as Christ told them when He said “but with you it is not so” and told them that the greatest will be the least.

I believe that in Chapters 3 and 4 Paul is showing that the attitude that there are somehow “leaders” who have “authority” or “positions of power” is wrong. History has shown that the concept of “leadership” is not part of the church. The statement “power corrupts” has been proven over and over and Christ meant for that “power” to be His alone and any attempt of men to grasp any of that “power” is contrary to what He taught.

The responsibility to faithfully maintain and spread the pure message is in the “elected” elders who become stewards of the “message” if you will but not stewards of men.

1,744 posted on 01/20/2012 7:54:24 AM PST by CynicalBear
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