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To: Rashputin; metmom; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name; Lera; Quix; wmfights; ...

I am not sure if you are looking for a response your unreasonable unloading, but I see it as a very superficial broadbrush. Yet the subjects behind your complaint are fundamental and worthy of some analyzation and investigation, which I would try to briefly address.

In essence, they believe they've said the magic words, so now Jesus Christ is indebted to and obligated to them, and that they are in no way indebted to or obligated to Christ...In their view, they are the Potter and Christ is their clay.

While antinomianism has been a problem from before the Reformation, that sola fide historical overall marginalized works is clearly contrary to its overall testimony.

And while today a superficial form of Protestantism is increasingly manifest, taking upon the characteristics of the society in which it exists, this decreasing camp stands in contrast to evangelicals (yet, a remnant) who manifest more commitment to the supremacy of Scripture and core Protestant distinctives, and which is the type of faith I think is overall behind what is often contended for here. Rather than liberal Protestantism being a product of Sola Scriptura as the word of God after its historical Scriptural “tradition,” they evidence rejection of the Scriptures as the supreme authority and the word of God.

Meanwhile, contrary to your depiction, like liberal Protestantism, it is Roman Catholics who overall testify to “easy believism” being inferior to evangelicals in areas of commitment and doctrine. While this laxity is not official teaching, faith is know by its works, and this easy believism is what Rome largely effectually promotes by fostering confidence in her power and one's merit, and by her lack of any real discipline of abortion and homosexual, etc. promoting Catholics, in which she conveys that as long as one dies in the arms of Rome she will get them in, no matter if they evidenced impenitent basic moral beliefs that were critically contrary to Christ.

Therefore Roman Catholicism has two camps: the Traditionalists, some of whom go so far as the sedevacantist schism, and want the powers Rome once had as it took upon much of the form and means of the empire in which it was found, and seem to long for the days of the inquisitions, while the majority of Catholics who follow after the liberal interpretations fostered by Vatican II.

And while you can seek to relegate these liberals to be non-Catholics, yet these are honored in life and in death as members. And this necessary inclusion impugns the validity of your message, as unlike us, you do not simply preach a faith but a particular supreme Church as an intrinsic part of that faith, and thus what it officially teaches as well as presently effectually fosters is what you argue for.

As we've seen clearly in this thread, even denying the deity of Christ as it is spelled out in the New Testament doesn't matter to such folks.

As touched on above, rather than being characterized as denying such core essentials, as the deity of Christ, those denominations which have held to the Scriptures as supreme as the word of God historically have contended against such as deny them, as well, as against the traditions of men being made equal to the Scriptures by Rome, as the aberrations of both groups are the result of a shared practice, that of effectively making the church magisterium supreme over the Scriptures. And which groups from the Mormons to the Watchtower Society also do.

The Invisible Church of The Most High Self

Rather, while those who hold to the supremacy of Scripture recognize that the one true church only consists of born again believers, (1Cor. 12:13; Eph. 1:13) yet such typically are manifest in known visible bodies, whether be Southern Baptist or Calvary chapels.

And as holding the Scriptures as supreme means as they also uphold the teaching magisterium of the church, they thus each have a higher magisterium over their own particular flock. And in which is all the power Rome effectively has, even if it presumes universal jurisdiction. And while such evangelical magisterium's do not presume to claim assured infallibility as per Rome, which is an attribute they hold is only given on Earth to Scripture, instead requires all teaching to be substantiated and warranted upon the weight of Scripture, so strong is this evidence as regards certain core teachings that overall one will be marked as a heretic if they deviate from them.

And thus while lacking a centralized administration, yet as said, like Catholics, evangelicals manifest a common consent to certain core teachings, while allowing varying degrees of liberty in other things. And which is also true in Roman Catholicism, although there is far more that Catholics can and do disagree on than the average one realizes or might admit to.

Therefore, while RCA's often charge that every Protestant is his own pope, yet in contrast to the pope, no one who holds to SS can presume assured infallibility, which the Sola Scripturist only holds the Scriptures are, and like the noble Bereans, (Acts 17:11) he seeks to prove all things by that which is proved to be of God; it being the only transcendent, material authority on faith and morals which is established to be wholly inspired of God, (2Tim. 3:16) and which is abundantly evidenced to be the standard for obedience and for testing truth claims.

In addition, while Roman Catholic apologist often attack evangelicals based upon their reliance upon fallible human reasoning, however prayerful — an infirmity which the supreme magisterium of Rome asserts they are immune from when speaking in accordance with their infallibly-defined criteria — yet the Catholic himself makes a fallible decision to submit to Rome, which use of fallible human reasoning he also engages in when interpreting what Rome has taught, including which teachings are indeed infallible in which was are not, in which he cannot be absolutely sure.

Therefore both the Catholic and evangelical claim to have and assuredly infallible authority, but neither claim to be assuredly in fallible themselves.

In contrast, the type of assurance which Scripture promises the believer in the Scriptures, is not based upon the premise of an assuredly infallible magisterium, though that does not disallow that believers and the church can speak infallible truth, but the assurance promise therein is based upon conformity to the assuredly infallible Scriptures and its means of attesting to truth, especially to new revelation. And which is what Acts 15 and other examples testifies to.

That is all for now.

1,410 posted on 01/15/2012 10:51:13 AM PST by daniel1212 (Our sinful deeds condemn us, but Christ's death and resurrection gains salvation. Repent +Believe)
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To: daniel1212
.....while today a 'superficial' form of Protestantism is increasingly manifest,... taking upon the characteristics of the society in which it exists,... this decreasing camp stands in contrast to evangelicals (yet, a remnant) who manifest more commitment to the supremacy of Scripture and core Protestant distinctives,..... and which is the type of faith I think is overall behind what is often contended for here....

Rather than liberal Protestantism being a product of Sola Scriptura as the word of God after its historical Scriptural “tradition,”.... they evidence rejection of the Scriptures as the supreme authority and the word of God.

I agree with this and evidenced this over the years as my work took me to various churches along the way. More distinctive in some than others but the liberal mindset has definitely impacted the whole climate of the churches....and in many we see the members attempting to fight this off....generally a "visitor" does not see this but the Lord has his people within and they do share of the unrest once they see you are a Christian.

It's a mistake to say all Protestant churches are expereincing this liberal mindset...but yes a vast majority, especially the big impact churches.

1,444 posted on 01/15/2012 6:25:07 PM PST by caww
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To: daniel1212
Roman Catholicism has two camps: The Traditionalists, some of whom go so far as the sedevacantist schism, and want the powers Rome once had as it took upon much of the form and means of the empire in which it was found, and seem to long for the days of the inquisitions,...... while the majority of Catholics who follow after the liberal interpretations fostered by Vatican II.

I agree but also see some who "borrow" from both sides of that aisle when they attempt to justify their beliefs. There are also those who are simply undecided in what they believe about Catholicism...to them the "title" is what's significant...all the rest is simply "lip-service" in their opinion...they are free to believe as they might choose and belief fully they are catholics and that's sufficient for them....which likely places them in the "liberal" camp.

1,447 posted on 01/15/2012 6:33:11 PM PST by caww
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To: daniel1212
....while Roman Catholic apologist often attack evangelicals based upon their reliance upon fallible human reasoning, however prayerful — an infirmity which the supreme magisterium of Rome asserts they are immune from when speaking in accordance with their infallibly-defined criteria — .....yet the Catholic himself makes a fallible decision to submit to Rome,..... which use of 'fallible human reasoning' he also engages in when interpreting what Rome has taught, including which teachings are indeed infallible in which was are not,.... in which he cannot be absolutely sure.

Amazing Daniel....the fact catholics have made a decision,... 'based on human reason',... to believe in the Vatican and it's teachings does make the point.

1,451 posted on 01/15/2012 6:42:07 PM PST by caww
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To: daniel1212
......the type of assurance which Scripture promises the believer in the Scriptures, is not based upon the premise of an assuredly infallible magisterium,.... though that does not disallow that believers and the church can speak infallible truth,..... but the assurance promise therein is based upon conformity to the assuredly infallible Scriptures and its means of attesting to truth, especially to new revelation...... And which is what Acts 15 and other examples testifies to.

Amen! ....All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. .....2 Timothy 3:16-17

...Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her ....'with the washing of water by the word',..... that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.... Ephesians 5:25-27

1,453 posted on 01/15/2012 6:49:16 PM PST by caww
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To: daniel1212
IOW, you still strongly believe that it's just fine for folks to deny what is clearly written in Scripture, call Christ a liar, and and slander every Catholic now alive and who has ever lived, as long as they claim to be personally infallible. Thanks for the clarification.
1,503 posted on 01/15/2012 10:25:33 PM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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