Top 5 faith & culture stories: Should Christians vote for a Mormon?

Denison Forum on Truth and Culture ^ | Dec. 28, 2011 | Jim Denison

[Colofornian]

Time magazine says the #1 religion story of the year is the rise of Mormonism. Two Mormons are running for president; Glenn Beck's commitment to the Mormon church made headlines; .

As we continue our series on my top 5 faith and culture stories of 2011, let's ask today: Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints a cult? Can Christians vote for a Mormon candidate? What does the mainstreaming of Mormonism say about our culture? The answers to these questions will take more space than my typical essay--I hope the following information is helpful.

If by "cult" we mean the popular caricature of a manipulative group that practices mind control and exploits its members, the Mormon church clearly does not qualify. However, scholars use the word differently. According to Walter Martin's definitive The Rise of the Cults, a "cult" by definition claims a founder other than Jesus, follows a book other than the Bible, accepts beliefs that are outside orthodox Christianity, and seeks salvation in ways other than by grace through faith.

How do Mormon beliefs stack up against this definition?

There is no question that Mormons claim to be Christians. But what do they believe about God? Their movement was founded 1800 years after Christ by Joseph Smith (1805-44). He taught that "God was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heaven" (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22). His physical intercourse with Mary resulted in the conception of the physical Christ (Journal of Discourses 1:51; 4:218).

Do Mormons follow a book other than the Bible? In addition to Scripture, they consider the Book of Mormon to be "another testament of Jesus Christ" revealed by Jesus to descendants of Israel living in early America. They also follow Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, compendiums of theology and prescribed practices.

Do they accept beliefs outside orthodox Christianity? Smith taught plural marriage as a "new and everlasting covenant" (Doctrine and Covenants 132:1,4), though the church repudiated polygamy in 1890. They baptize for the dead, believing that this action can speed the progress of the deceased in the afterlife.

Do they seek salvation in ways other than by grace through faith? Mormons believe that baptism purges their Gentile blood and replaces it with the blood of Abraham through the Holy Spirit. In this way they become the actual offspring of Abraham (History of the Church 3:380). They believe in three levels of glory: the telestial kingdom (for those who have no testimony of Christ); the terrestrial kingdom (for those who fail the requirements of exaltation); and the celestial kingdom (reserved for members of the Mormon church who will become "gods"; Doctrine and Covenants 132:20).

Are Mormons Christians? That depends on the degree to which they accept the non-biblical teachings of their faith regarding God and salvation. I have known Mormons who assured me that they have asked the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive their sins and become their personal Savior and Lord. Many Mormons I have met do not know the doctrines of their church I have discussed today. However, I have also met Mormons who believe that their progress toward the celestial kingdom depends not on Jesus' sacrifice but on their missionary work and other church activities.

Should the Mormon beliefs of Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman influence Christians as they decide which presidential candidate to support? Our decision should be informed by our answers to two questions. First, to what extent do Romney and Huntsman accept the non-Christian elements of their faith? Second, to what degree would decisions made by the president be impacted by uniquely Mormon beliefs?

What does the mainstreaming of Mormonism say about America? "Pluralism" is the belief that many religions lead to God. According to a recent survey, two-thirds of evangelicals under the age of 35 believe non-Christians can go to heaven, even though Jesus clearly said, "No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

I predict that we'll see an escalation of pluralism in the new year as our culture's rejection of absolutes becomes even more pervasive. But just as all roads don't lead to Dallas, all roads don't lead to heaven. Are you on the right one? Are you praying for someone who isn't?

[ejonesie22]

Always.

[wintertime]

Just this many words:

Please find a link where Mormon leaders state that God the Father has literal and physical sex ( intercourse) with Mary or that Mary was not a virgin when Jesus was born.

Since it is soooooo believed by you it should be simple for you to find a quote in a nanosecond or two.

I see a lot of implied imaginings from the minds of people I consider to be pathologically obsessed with Mormonism.

[wintertime]

Ok....I am curious so I went to what I believe is possibly the gold standard ( no pun intended) for the Mormons, their own scriptures.

Virgins don't conceive unless it is a miracle. Evidently, Mormons believe that God the Father did NOT have intercourse with Mary. They believe that she was over shaddowed by the Holy Ghost and that the conception was by power of the Holy Ghost ( this is what my **Christian** denomination teaches, by the way),

Alma 7

10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Nephi 2;114

14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign— Behold, a avirgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Emanuel.

My conclusion: This article is a hit piece. I don't believe a thing posted on Free Republic about the Mormons.

[ansel12]

If Romney wins the nomination, then one of the politically necessary functions for a majority of conservative commentators, radio hosts, writers, and even Christian religious leaders, will be to overcome Christian America’s aversion and resistance to Mormonism.

Bishop Romney and his religion knows that his candidacy will force a mass of new justifications and rationalizations for the mainstreaming of Mormonism, and that those will come from a vast new source of non-Mormon conservative opinion makers and leaders, supplying an ocean of new, creative and eloquent arguments written from the inside of conservatism and Christianity itself to get us to vote for Romney instead of using our faith based wisdom and knowledge that serves true conservatism so well.

[Colofornian]

Please none of the “implied” stuff!

What implications? Let me repeat two of those citations -- two Lds "apostle" statements alone that leave no doubt:

Bruce McConkie: "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547.)

ALL: Wintertime thinks that all of us were miraculously Supernaturally conceived & born of virgin moms, too!

Wintertime, stop making yourself a laughing stock and actually decipher what these plain words mean!

McConkie again: “We have spoke PLAINLY of our Lord’s CONCEPTION in the womb of Mary.

You do know, Wintertime, what a "conception in the womb" is, don't you? Do I have to explain this to you?

Picking up where I left off citing McConkie: I am the son of my father and the father of my sons. They are my sons because they were begotten by me, were conceived by their mother, and came forth from her womb to breathe the breath of mortal life, to dwell for a time and a season among other mortal men. And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a Father…And the Son is a Son is a Son…a literal, living offspring from an actual Father. God is the Father; Christ is the Son. The one begat the other. Mary provided the womb from which the Spirit Jehovah came forth, tabernacled in clay, as all men are, to dwell among his fellow spirits whose births were brought to pass in like manner. There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord’s coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the SAME SENSE AND WAY THAT WE ARE THE SONS OF MORTAL FATHERS. It is that simple. Christ was born of Mary. He is the Son of God—the Only Begotten of the Father. (The Promised Messiah, pp. 467-468, 1978)

ALL: Wintertime thinks that we are conceived/begotten/birthed of our fathers in the "Same sense" that Jesus was of His Father.

Well. I guess that makes all of our moms "virgins" and nothing "supernatural" occurred. Hey, Wintertime???

[delacoert]

My conclusion: This article is a hit piece. I don't believe a thing posted on Free Republic about the Mormons.

That's fine with me. I don't believe you're NOT Mormon.

My conclusion: your counter-contrarian posts in the FR Religion forum just aren't forthright - especially the Mormon apologetics.

[greyfoxx39]

That is an excellent post, and I agree with you...especially this comment..."I want my president to get on his knees and pray. And when he prays I want to know there is someone on the other end listening. If they aren’t a Christian its my belief no one is there."

[reaganaut]

EXCELLENT POST! You concisely described what I have been trying to explain for quite some time. Thank you.

[reaganaut]

I already have. Several of us have. You can’t see the forest for the trees. OY VEY!

You can think what you want, I’ve been there you haven’t.

[reaganaut]

Here is a blog by a Mormon...

http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/10/like-a-virgin/

There is no doubt that the idea of physical relations between God and Mary has been clearly advocated in the Church by such authorities as Brigham Young [1], Orson Pratt [2], Heber C. Kimball [3], Joseph F. Smith, [4], Joseph Fielding Smith [5], James E. Talmage [6], Melvin J. Ballard [7], J. Reuben Clark [8], Bruce R. McConkie [9], and Ezra Taft Benson [10]. Mormons believe that Christ was literally the Son of God in the flesh, and he was conceived in a natural, physical way according to eternal law. In explaining this, the aforementioned leaders gave their views on how it was accomplished. Despite this, many members do not agree, are unaware of the idea, or prefer not to discuss it. It is certainly understandable that some feel it is a sacred subject. Some feel that it is merely speculation which does not affect the LDS doctrinal position on the nature of Christ. Others find it distasteful because it conjures up issues of celestial polygamy or spiritual incest. There are those who would like to skirt the issue by postulating that Mary may have been impregnated by some means such as artificial insemination. But I see no reason, if God has a body and parts, that he would not use his parts.

[reaganaut]

am curious so I went to what I believe is possibly the gold standard ( no pun intended) for the Mormons, their own scriptures.

- - - -
Well you are wrong in THAT assumption right there. Most of Mormon doctrine contradicts the Book of Mormon. LDS doctrine comes from a variety of sources, not just the BoM (or even the D&C).

Because the BoM was written before most LDS theology developed, first and second because Smith plagiarized the Bible. BTW, the two verses are stolen from the Bible.

The BOM also says they pray to Jesus, but ask a Mormon (any Mormon) if they are to pray to Jesus.

[reaganaut]

I don’t believe a thing posted on Free Republic about the Mormons.

- - - - -
Then you are either naive or stupid.

[wintertime]

Same sense” that Jesus was of His Father.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If that means I am the **literal** child of my father as Jesus is the literal father of God the Father in that sense this is TRUE!

Personally...I had to check this out for myself and I looked up the Book of Mormon ( not a blog) ( Geeze! a **blog?**) And this is what the Book of Mormon says. Personally....I don't believe a word written about Mormon beliefs on these threads and I don't even believe some of the personal histories given about being “former” Mormons. These threads are nothing but hit pieces if they could get something so plainly WRONG!

Again from **their** scriptures ( not blog)

Virgins don't conceive unless it is a miracle. Evidently, Mormons believe that God the Father did NOT have intercourse with Mary. They believe that she was over shaddowed by the Holy Ghost and that the conception was by power of the Holy Ghost ( this is what my **Christian** denomination teaches, by the way),

Alma 7

10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Nephi 2;114

14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign— Behold, a avirgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Emanuel.

[reaganaut]

Wintertime, stop making yourself a laughing stock and actually decipher what these plain words mean!
- - - - - -

Maybe she is taking lessons from Resty?

Again, I really don’t get why Catholics feel the need to defend Mormons, or trust them to tell the truth.

[Godzilla]

Perhaps you missed this teaching from lds

Family Home Evenings (1972), by the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, says the following in pp. 125-126 to "help you and your children understand that Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son."

In this manual Joseph F. Smith is quoted under the heading, "A MODERN PROPHET'S ANSWER":
"Now we are told in Scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father... We must come down to the simple fact that God Almighty was the Father of His Son Jesus Christ. Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was his mother. God by her begot His son Jesus Christ. And he was born into the world with power and intelligence like that of his Father."

The claim - Mary was a virgin because she never knew a MORTAL man -but and IMMORTAL man is just ok to have sex with and retain 'virginity'.

Mormons differ from other Christians in our literal belief that we are begotten of God spiritually and that Christ was begotten of him physically. Paul says in Acts that we are God's offspring (17:28-29). We believe that our spiritual conception was sexual just as we believe that Christ's mortal conception was. Elucidating on the latter, James E. Talmage says, ‘That child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law, but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof (1986, 81) (Robert A. Rees, “Bearing our Crosses Gracefully: Sex and the Single Mormon,” Dialogue, Vol.24, No.4, p.99).

"God the Father came down in his tabernacle of flesh and bone and had association with Mary, and made her pregnant with Jesus." - Apostle Franklin D. Richards (July 21, 1887)

[wintertime]

If you do not believe that Jesus is the **literal** son of God the Father in the same sense as any human is to their father, then how can you call your self Christian?

It's a “Word made Flesh” belief. What do you think Jesus was made of, huh?, thin air, magical Spirit?

You call yourselves Christian? UNBELIEVABLE!

[reaganaut]

You think she may be LDS? I figured she was just a Catholic defender of Mormonism who has no idea what they really believe, just hates Protestants.

[wintertime]

In this manual Joseph F. Smith is quoted under the heading, “A MODERN PROPHET'S ANSWER”:
“Now we are told in Scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father... We must come down to the simple fact that God Almighty was the Father of His Son Jesus Christ. Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was his mother. God by her begot His son Jesus Christ. And he was born into the world with power and intelligence like that of his Father.”
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Where does it say that God the Father had INTERCOURSE with Mary? Huh? You are grasping at straws. What I get from this is that God the Father is the literal father of Jesus. His mother was a virgin.

If you do not believe that God the Father is the literal father of Jesus how can you call yourself a Christian? It seems that Mormons believe this too, and that they believe that Mary was over shaddowed by the Spirit. That's what their scriptures **plainly** state:

Again for all those who are dense:

Virgins don't conceive unless it is a miracle. Evidently, Mormons believe that God the Father did NOT have intercourse with Mary. They believe that she was over shaddowed by the Holy Ghost and that the conception was by power of the Holy Ghost ( this is what my **Christian** denomination teaches, by the way),

Alma 7

10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Nephi 2;114

14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign— Behold, a avirgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Emanuel.

Alma 7

10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Nephi 2;114

14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign— Behold, a avirgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Emanuel.

[reaganaut]

Again, Smith plagarized those from the Bible. Duh. And the blog states that a current Mormon believes it and so do others.

Like Catholicism, Mormonism gets its doctrine from things outside the Bible (like Tradition and writings of the leaders which we have provided).

[delacoert]

Well said.

as a voter I can have any “test” I want ... “abortion test” ... “defense test” ... “help the poor test” ... None of these are constitutional requirements ...

It's just a symptom of a generally poor education, public or otherwise, that leads some to mention constitutional prohibition when discussing personal voting choices based on religion or morality.

Personally, I have a "religion" test for the quality of a person's judgement, intelligence and education.