Posted on 12/31/2011 8:49:24 AM PST by Colofornian
Time magazine says the #1 religion story of the year is the rise of Mormonism. Two Mormons are running for president; Glenn Beck's commitment to the Mormon church made headlines; . As we continue our series on my top 5 faith and culture stories of 2011, let's ask today: Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints a cult? Can Christians vote for a Mormon candidate? What does the mainstreaming of Mormonism say about our culture? The answers to these questions will take more space than my typical essay--I hope the following information is helpful. If by "cult" we mean the popular caricature of a manipulative group that practices mind control and exploits its members, the Mormon church clearly does not qualify. However, scholars use the word differently. According to Walter Martin's definitive The Rise of the Cults, a "cult" by definition claims a founder other than Jesus, follows a book other than the Bible, accepts beliefs that are outside orthodox Christianity, and seeks salvation in ways other than by grace through faith. How do Mormon beliefs stack up against this definition? There is no question that Mormons claim to be Christians. But what do they believe about God? Their movement was founded 1800 years after Christ by Joseph Smith (1805-44). He taught that "God was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heaven" (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22). His physical intercourse with Mary resulted in the conception of the physical Christ (Journal of Discourses 1:51; 4:218). Do Mormons follow a book other than the Bible? In addition to Scripture, they consider the Book of Mormon to be "another testament of Jesus Christ" revealed by Jesus to descendants of Israel living in early America. They also follow Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, compendiums of theology and prescribed practices. Do they accept beliefs outside orthodox Christianity? Smith taught plural marriage as a "new and everlasting covenant" (Doctrine and Covenants 132:1,4), though the church repudiated polygamy in 1890. They baptize for the dead, believing that this action can speed the progress of the deceased in the afterlife. Do they seek salvation in ways other than by grace through faith? Mormons believe that baptism purges their Gentile blood and replaces it with the blood of Abraham through the Holy Spirit. In this way they become the actual offspring of Abraham (History of the Church 3:380). They believe in three levels of glory: the telestial kingdom (for those who have no testimony of Christ); the terrestrial kingdom (for those who fail the requirements of exaltation); and the celestial kingdom (reserved for members of the Mormon church who will become "gods"; Doctrine and Covenants 132:20). Are Mormons Christians? That depends on the degree to which they accept the non-biblical teachings of their faith regarding God and salvation. I have known Mormons who assured me that they have asked the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive their sins and become their personal Savior and Lord. Many Mormons I have met do not know the doctrines of their church I have discussed today. However, I have also met Mormons who believe that their progress toward the celestial kingdom depends not on Jesus' sacrifice but on their missionary work and other church activities. Should the Mormon beliefs of Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman influence Christians as they decide which presidential candidate to support? Our decision should be informed by our answers to two questions. First, to what extent do Romney and Huntsman accept the non-Christian elements of their faith? Second, to what degree would decisions made by the president be impacted by uniquely Mormon beliefs? What does the mainstreaming of Mormonism say about America? "Pluralism" is the belief that many religions lead to God. According to a recent survey, two-thirds of evangelicals under the age of 35 believe non-Christians can go to heaven, even though Jesus clearly said, "No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). I predict that we'll see an escalation of pluralism in the new year as our culture's rejection of absolutes becomes even more pervasive. But just as all roads don't lead to Dallas, all roads don't lead to heaven. Are you on the right one? Are you praying for someone who isn't?
If the choice is Mormon or Muslim, every Christian will vote against the Muslim.
Exactly right. Our family believes that a candidate's stance on abortion reflects the character of the candidate.
Romney has no character in this way.
Even less than a month before the Iowa vote in December '07, note what Romney told Katie Couric in an interview:
June 15, 2007 (National Review article he wrote): "Some advocates told me that only the creation of human embryos for purposes of experimentation, otherwise known as cloning, could help them better understand and perhaps someday treat a series of dreaded diseases. But they ignored the importance of protecting human equality, dignity, and life. Almost 6 months later: December 5, 2007 Romney is interviewed by CBS' Katie Couric: ...surplus embryos...Those embryos, I hope, could be available for adoption for people who would like to adopt embryos. But if a parent decides they would want to donate one of those embryos for purposes of research, in my view, that's acceptable. It should not be made against the law." Source: Candidates Reveal Their Biggest Mistakes
A vocal pro-life nurse named Jill Stanek, up until this last quote from Romney, "was trying hard to give this pro-life convert the benefit of the doubt." Stanek's assessment of Romney's conclusion? "No. A parent cannot authorize killing a child. A parent cannot donate his/her living child for scientific experimentation. Romney understood this when discussing abortion earlier in the interview. He just need to apply that logic to human embryo experimentation...I don't get Romney's disconnect, but he has disconnected. And he has disqualified himself...Turns out he's not completely converted." Source: http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/12/mitt_romney_just.html
As Deal W. Hudson has said in his blog, Romney has a "lingering problem" in being only opposed to creating clones for stem cell research--not opposed to using "discarded" or "donated" frozen embryos: "...frozen embryos have been the primary source of embryonic tissue for stem cell research. How can you declare yourself opposed to this research when you are not opposed to the way it is actually carried out?...My question is this: How can you consider a frozen embryo a moral entity capable of being adopted, while at the same time support the scientist who wants to cut the embryonic being into pieces? Even more, if Romney's conversion was about the 'cheapened value of human life,' how can he abide the thought of a parent donating 'one of those embryos' to be destroyed?" Source: http://dealwhudson.typepad.com/deal_w_hudson/2007/12/the-problem-wit.html
So, just on embryonic research, we go from a...
...Mid-2002 Romney singing the praises of embryonic research: June 13, 2002, where he: ...spoke at a bioethics forum at Brandeis University. In a Boston Globe story filed the next day, he was quoted as saying that he endorsed embryonic stem cell research, hoping it would one day cure his wife's multiple sclerosis. And he went on to say: "I am in favor of stem cell research. I will work and fight for stem cell research," before adding, "I'd be happy to talk to [President Bush] about this, though I don't know if I could budge him an inch." When pressed, however, Romney and his aides declined to offer an opinion on "therapeutic" or embryonic cloning. Source: weekly standard http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/013/222htyos.asp?pg=1
...To a...
...Late-2004 Romney undergoing his pro-life "conversion" due to this very issue: Nov. 9, 2004: Romney meet with Dr. Douglas Melton from the Harvard Stem Cell Institute: He recalls that it happened in a single revelatory moment, during a Nov. 9, 2004, meeting with an embryonic-stem-cell researcher who said he didn't believe therapeutic cloning presented a moral issue because the embryos were destroyed at 14 days. "It hit me very hard that we had so cheapened the value of human life in a Roe v. Wade environment that it was important to stand for the dignity of human life," Romney says. Source: Time Mag, March 9, 2007 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1619536-2,00.html
...To a...
...Late-2007 Romney who doesn't mind frozen embryonic life being "cheapened" or doesn't mind if they are excluded from his so-called "importance of protecting human equality, dignity, and life"...well that is, with this caveat: As long as Mom & Pop say it's OK for them to be sacrificed in such an experimental research manner!
Did you fail reading comprehension?
And your Christian denomination teaches that God had sex with Mary? Mine doesn’t.
Mormon theology states that God is not omnipresent, God has a body of flesh and bones and Mary was one of God’s wives. I was taught over and over again, as were most LDS I know that God had intercourse with Mary.
Christians believe that Mary conceived through the power of the Holy Ghost, Mormons believe no such thing.
But for clarity, I have pinged other ex-mo’s. Lets ask them...
Were any others of you taught that God had sex with Mary to conceive Jesus?
Soure for that claim.
That doesn’t mean they have to vote for the Mormon either.
Well those things are inherent concepts, of course. The bible is a relatively recent name for the collected books. A “Christian” is an implied concept as well. Monotheism is a well known concept not needing any biblical interpretation. The only thing I meant with that out-of-context statement is that the trinity isn’t biblical either. It is extrapolated. There may in fact be more to the father, the son, the holy ghost than we realize.
Check it out for yourself. Christians pray to God up in heaven. Muslims pray with their butts in the air and their heads on the ground facing their master in hell. Christians will not vote for such.
Let me make this as simple as possible.
The Bible teaches there is only one True God.
It also teaches that Jesus Christ is God.
That the Holy Spirit is God.
And our Father in heaven is God.
It's not 1+1+1 = 3; it's 1x1x1 =1.
Please none of the “implied” stuff!
What I see is what my **Christian** denomination teaches. God the Father is the **literal** father of Jesus. ( That means a DNA-type dad).
It think it is really a cheap jab in the kidneys to state that Mormons believe that God the Father had intercourse with Mary and then post citations that say NOTHING of the kind! What? Did they think that maybe some of us might be lazy and just not check the reference? What I did find was a lot of stuff that sound down right sensible to me ( even though it had nothing to do with Mary.)
Mormonism is weird. Any religion can be made to look weird. Gee! As a Christian I believe that Jesus rose from the dead. How weird is that? Huh?
But....What is more weird is the pathological fixation of the anti-Mormonism posters on Free Republic.
Of course...if the Muslim is the Democrat, and the Mormon is the RINO, masses of voters will vote third party -- and many of them will permanently leave the GOP.
In quick order.
Evangelicals were over 1/3rd of the entire bloc of voters in 2010.
Whigism...extinction...of the GOP will likely follow if Romney wins the nomination.
The GOP will implode.
You need to understand that the GOP only has about 36% of registered voters as it is. (The Dems just over 40%). Independents and other very small parties make up over 20% these days.
It won't take all that many permanent defections to bring an end to the GOP.
Romney is not a viable candidate. He won't win.
Voting for him, were he to win the nomination, is throwing away your vote.
He might do better than a third party...but if a football team loses a bowl game 46-29, who cares if that losing team would have done better than another team losing 46-17?
I SAID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF THE KIND ABOUT MY CHRISTIAN DENOMINIATION! Jesus was born of a virgin. Her conception was a miracle but God the Father **is** the **literal** father of Jesus.
And...The citations given as “proof” that Mormons believe God the Father had intercourse with Mary DO NOT SAY THAT!!!
But since you are convinced that Mormons believe that God the Father had intercourse with Mary it should be **simple** for you to find writings that say exactly that or that Jesus was not born of a virgin. None of the **implied** stuff.
Sorry...I dont’ believe a thing that I read about Mormonism on any of these Freeper threads. Color me **very** skeptical!
Well I can see where this is going. Happy New Year!
I didn’t think so, but Mormons believe Mary was not a virgin. The statements are clear by LDS leader, phyical father, Mary was one of God’s wives, LITERAL after the same manner, it isn’t unclear at all. Just because the word intercourse isn’t used doesn’t mean that the teaching isn’t there.
Well, don’t believe what Mormons say either, they lie to ‘gentiles’ all the time.
I don’t need to be convinced. I was taught that in LDS sacrament meetings, LDS sunday school, LDS Institute; LDS relief society, at BYU, and from other Mormons.
They even re-define “virgin” to be ‘a woman of marriable age’ rather than a physical virign.
How much clearer can you get than this...
There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.742 Son Of God, LDS Collectors Library ‘97 CD-ROM)
bodily offspring; (James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.5, p.26-27 The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and the Twelve, June 1916, LDS Collectors Library ‘97 CD-ROM)
I know, right? I remember when I had just joined the LDS, and was with my professor and his family and the subject came up. I balked when I hear that God had sex with Mary and they explained to me that “God has a physical body, he cannot do things outside that physical body because he has to obey the laws of the universe, so he came down and created Jesus just like your parents created you, through sex”.
At the time, it made sense.
I think everybody is missing the point when it comes to voting for a Mormon if you are a Christian. Mormon’s may claim to be Christians. It is certainly their right to do so. However, that does not mean that Christians (by that I mean people generally identified as Christians - i.e. protestants and catholics) have to accept them into the fold. I for one don’t believe that Mormons are Christians.
At this point I’m usually met with the “there is no religious test for public office” argument. That is correct. There is no constitutional religious requirement. Any Mormon has the right to run for president. However, as a voter I can have any “test” I want. Some people have the “abortion test” others the “defense test” and still others the “help the poor test.” None of these are constitutional requirements either.
I have the “Christian test.” The first thing I want to know about a candidate is he/she a Christian. If they are I move on to the other “tests” I have. If the answer is no I rule that candidate out and start looking for another candidate. The reason I have a “Christian test” is that when things are tough and big decisions are looming ahead. I want my president to get on his knees and pray. And when he prays I want to know there is someone on the other end listening. If they aren’t a Christian its my belief no one is there.
Many of you will deride me for this position. Thats fine. You are entitled to you opinion. But lets let history be our judge. For over 200 years we have been largely led by men who turned to Christ for guidance. As a result we have been the most prosperous nation ever. In recent years our leaders have fallen away from our Christian heritage. Look where were at now. Still great but definitely faltering. Now some of you want to help elect a man who while moral, decent and upstanding isn’t a Christian. Who will he turn to for guidance?
Ok If Mormons believe that then find a link where they **exactly** say that. Where do they say that Mary was not a virgin at Jesus Birth and that God the Father had intercourse with her?
You are convinced that Mormons teach this so it should be easy to find where they plainly state this.
Color me skeptical with this “implied” stuff.
Personally....I think many of the posters invent stuff about the Mormons.
Always.
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