Posted on 12/31/2011 8:49:24 AM PST by Colofornian
Time magazine says the #1 religion story of the year is the rise of Mormonism. Two Mormons are running for president; Glenn Beck's commitment to the Mormon church made headlines; . As we continue our series on my top 5 faith and culture stories of 2011, let's ask today: Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints a cult? Can Christians vote for a Mormon candidate? What does the mainstreaming of Mormonism say about our culture? The answers to these questions will take more space than my typical essay--I hope the following information is helpful. If by "cult" we mean the popular caricature of a manipulative group that practices mind control and exploits its members, the Mormon church clearly does not qualify. However, scholars use the word differently. According to Walter Martin's definitive The Rise of the Cults, a "cult" by definition claims a founder other than Jesus, follows a book other than the Bible, accepts beliefs that are outside orthodox Christianity, and seeks salvation in ways other than by grace through faith. How do Mormon beliefs stack up against this definition? There is no question that Mormons claim to be Christians. But what do they believe about God? Their movement was founded 1800 years after Christ by Joseph Smith (1805-44). He taught that "God was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heaven" (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22). His physical intercourse with Mary resulted in the conception of the physical Christ (Journal of Discourses 1:51; 4:218). Do Mormons follow a book other than the Bible? In addition to Scripture, they consider the Book of Mormon to be "another testament of Jesus Christ" revealed by Jesus to descendants of Israel living in early America. They also follow Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, compendiums of theology and prescribed practices. Do they accept beliefs outside orthodox Christianity? Smith taught plural marriage as a "new and everlasting covenant" (Doctrine and Covenants 132:1,4), though the church repudiated polygamy in 1890. They baptize for the dead, believing that this action can speed the progress of the deceased in the afterlife. Do they seek salvation in ways other than by grace through faith? Mormons believe that baptism purges their Gentile blood and replaces it with the blood of Abraham through the Holy Spirit. In this way they become the actual offspring of Abraham (History of the Church 3:380). They believe in three levels of glory: the telestial kingdom (for those who have no testimony of Christ); the terrestrial kingdom (for those who fail the requirements of exaltation); and the celestial kingdom (reserved for members of the Mormon church who will become "gods"; Doctrine and Covenants 132:20). Are Mormons Christians? That depends on the degree to which they accept the non-biblical teachings of their faith regarding God and salvation. I have known Mormons who assured me that they have asked the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive their sins and become their personal Savior and Lord. Many Mormons I have met do not know the doctrines of their church I have discussed today. However, I have also met Mormons who believe that their progress toward the celestial kingdom depends not on Jesus' sacrifice but on their missionary work and other church activities. Should the Mormon beliefs of Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman influence Christians as they decide which presidential candidate to support? Our decision should be informed by our answers to two questions. First, to what extent do Romney and Huntsman accept the non-Christian elements of their faith? Second, to what degree would decisions made by the president be impacted by uniquely Mormon beliefs? What does the mainstreaming of Mormonism say about America? "Pluralism" is the belief that many religions lead to God. According to a recent survey, two-thirds of evangelicals under the age of 35 believe non-Christians can go to heaven, even though Jesus clearly said, "No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). I predict that we'll see an escalation of pluralism in the new year as our culture's rejection of absolutes becomes even more pervasive. But just as all roads don't lead to Dallas, all roads don't lead to heaven. Are you on the right one? Are you praying for someone who isn't?
I have PLAINLY stated that it was by the POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST that OVERSHADDOWED the VIRGIN Mary.
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And that is what I believe, but that isn’t what Mormons teach as has been shown here in various ways. You have failed to address why you accept their word on this but don’t deal with their denial of other things taught in the Book of Mormon (like against polygamy and not to pray to Jesus).
You are just picking and choosing.
And Mormons are NOT Christians. Period.
Both Ismael and Isaac were begetton. Jesus is the begotten son of God the Father. Jesus **is** his son from Mary a virgin who conceived ( that was a miracle) and it was by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Do you believe the above? Honestly, I thought all Christians did. Silly me. I guess not. Hm?
The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115
Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47 Apostle Bruce R. McConkie
It was also lawful in Him, after having dealt with Mary, to give her to Joseph her espoused husband. Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and eternity, we are not informed. Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity." The Seer, Oct. 1853, pg. 158
The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115
Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47 Apostle Bruce R. McConkie
Brigham Young: '' l believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and begat the Savior of the World; for He is the Only Begotten of the Father which could not have been if the Father did not actually beget him in person''. (Journal of Discourses Vol. 1 page 238) AND ''The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children ; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers'' (Journal of Discourses Vol. 8 page 115)
Physical relations between God and Mary has been clearly advocated in the Church by such authorities as Brigham Young [1], Orson Pratt [2], Heber C. Kimball [3], Joseph F. Smith, [4], Joseph Fielding Smith [5], James E. Talmage [6], Melvin J. Ballard [7], J. Reuben Clark [8], Bruce R. McConkie [9], and Ezra Taft Benson [10]. Mormons believe that Christ was literally the Son of God in the flesh, and he was conceived in a natural, physical way according to eternal law.
Heber C. Kimball "In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it." (Journal of Discourses, 8:211)
"Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost... Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18).
Bruce McConkie "These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47)
There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 742)
"There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is just that simple." (The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, p. 468)
That is unless you believe all mormons are conceived artificially.
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Well, BIC Mormons being pod people WOULD explain the Mormon stare...
Well...Then I guess Mormons must be a very stupid bunch because their “gold” standard scriptures ( pun intended) **PLAINLY** **CLEARLY** and **EMPHATICALLY** states otherwise.
Again:
Alma 7
10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
Nephi 2;114
14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign— Behold, a avirgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Emanuel.
There is likely plenty of nutty beliefs to wack Mormons with this falsehood of God having sex with Mary likely isn't one of them. If it were true you wouldn't be posting all this “implied” junk.
For what it's worth, Mormonwiki (yeah, yeah, yeah, not an official Mormon site) contains the following:
Original doctrine:
Brigham Young taught:
- "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, volume 8, p. 115)
- "When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pp. 50, 51)
Ezra Taft Benson taught:
- "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father." (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7; cf. Come unto Christ, p. 4)
Orson Pratt taught:
- "[God] had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son , ...it may be that ... He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits (bear his children) in eternity." ('The Seer, p. 158)
Today's doctrine:
"We don't know and we shouldn't care"
Elder Harold B. Lee
"Teachers should not speculate on the manner of Christ's birth. We are very much concerned that some of our Church teachers seem to be obsessed of the idea of teaching doctrine which cannot be substantiated and making comments beyond what the Lord has actually said. You asked about the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about sexual intercourse between Deity and the mother of the Savior."
Robert Millet, a contemporary Mormon theologian
"While Latter-day Saints clearly believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Father, there is no authoritative doctrinal statement within Mormonism that explains how the conception of Jesus was accomplished," (Millet, Another Jesus? The Christ of the Latter-day Saints, p. 74)
Bob Vukich, a Mormon blogger
"I don't really care, one way or the other. Honestly, God can do no wrong, and since I believe Jesus was His only begotten son in the Flesh, the mechanics are irrelevant to me. OK, that being said, the Church does not have an official position on the mechanics."
Why do you keep insisting that the Book of Mormon is a ‘gold standard’ in Mormonism?? It isn’t as evidenced by other things, not the least of which many other doctrines contained in the book of Mormon are taught against or not taught at all.
Your use of the BoM as a standard isn’t valid. You are setting up a straw argument by claiming a book is a ‘standard’ when it isn’t even in their own eyes and denying the teachings of their leaders, which is a standard in their eyes. Your selective use of sources is pathetic.
Oh I can source a lot of wacky LDS beliefs. But this isn’t implied it is taught. God having sex with Mary isn’t a falsehood, it is believed by many (I would say most of the ones I knew) rank and file LDS as I have proven over and over again. There is nothing IMPLIED in the statements I posted.
If I were to say “My husband and I had marital relations last night” would you assume we had sex or not just because I didn’t use the word ‘intercourse’?
But according to your standard, Mormons should pray to Jesus and have never taught polygamy.
IIRC, you claim to be Catholic. Do you get ALL of your teachings only from Scripture? Yes or no?
She’s made up her mind, don’t confuse her with facts.
Are you lds?
If not, what is your issue?
mormonISM is not Christianity, I would love to see you defend Christ and not J Smith.
My posts will show that I have not said Mormonism is Christianity. In fact I thought I was being very careful to make that distinction.
And....Just because someone goes to a link to check out the veracity, does a an extremely **simple** Google search, and finds that what is posted in the article is not true does not make one a Mormon.
However it does seem that the **Mormon** ( notice I did not and have not said “Christian”) belief on Mary's virginity and her having conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus being the only begotten ( real) flesh and blood son of God the Father conforms to the teachings of my **Christian** denomination.
Personally, I thought all **Christians** believed this. I guess not. Silly me! It seems from the Mormon scriptures ( notice I did not say “Christian”) that they do, too. The best the anit-Mormonism posters can do is post “implied” arguments.
"We may talk of men being redeemed by the efficacy of his [Christ's] blood; but the truth is that that blood has no efficacy to wash away our sins. That must depend upon our own action." [ LDS Apostle Amasa M. Lyman, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 299, 1859]
Your shallow knowledge of LDS inc is exploited by the deceiver so you will defend his lying servants. You spittle forth the following foolishness and expect to have any creds?
I don't believe a thing posted on Free Republic about the Mormons.
Okay, apologist, you don't believe, so go to the cited Journal of Discourses and read the quote to yourself. Mormonism is the very spirit of anti-christ. Do the research, find out the truth you're ignoring in order to give the ISM a pass. The 'can't we all just get along' whine is pitiful.
On this matter then Mormons must be very stupid people because their scriptures **PLAINLY** state that Mary conceived as a virgin by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Are you saying that Mormons do NOT hold the Book of Mormon to be the highest authority in their religious belief? Do you really want me to do a simple Google search on that one, or are you confused? ( Here's your opportunity to save face because my bet is that they *do* hold the BOM to be the highest standard.)
Are you saying Mormons are **that** stupid and **that** brainwashed? If so, it absolutely does not conform to my interactions with Mormons ( limited as it is to skiing in Utah occasionally and having a Mormon family in the neighborhood. )
I guess you win. The anti-mormoISM posters post directly, their own personal experiences about mormonISM, apparently that means nothing to you.
I guess you win. Win how, because no matter what people do to answer your questions, you do not refer to the answers but go off on some other track.
So enjoy your new year, go ahead and defend mormonISM, I actually do not care.
I will enjoy the new year and continue to expose mormonISM for what it is - anti Christian.
The following will clarify why the Journal of Discourses can be seen as a reflection of Mormonic beliefs:
“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)“Each successive Volume of these Discourses is a rich mine of wealth, containing gems of great value, and the diligent seeker will find ample reward for his labor. After the fathers and mothers of this generation have made them the study of their lives their children’s children will find that they are still unexhausted, and rejoice that this Record has been handed down from their fathers to also aid them in following the way of life .” (Apostle Orson Pratt, Preface. Volume 3.)
“It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal.” (President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Volume 18.)
“We take great pleasure in presenting to the Saints and the world the … the Journal of Discourses, which they will find contains rich treasures of information concerning the glorious principles of Eternal Life, as revealed through God’s anointed servants in these last days. All who read the discourses contained in this Volume are earnestly recommended to adapt them to their lives by practice, and we can confidently assure them that, in doing so, they are laying up a store of knowledge that will save and exalt them in the Celestial kingdom.” (Apostle Albert Carrington, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 15.)
As we presume you are 'a good Catholic' are you aware that Mormonism claims through the years that ALL of Christendom (all those centuries when The Catholic Church was protector of Christian teaching) was in apostasy since the second century until Joseph Smith supposedly restored ‘true christianity’ to the human family:
And the following are but a few examples of the heresies at the heart of Mormonism:
First, reagrding the Mormonic god the father and his having earned the attributes of godhood after being sired by a still older god, etc:
"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, ... we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.132)."Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith.... The matter that seems such a mystery is the statement that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man. This is one of the mysteries.... The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp.10, 12).
“...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another...” (Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith)
“After men have got their exaltations and their crowns - have become Gods...” (Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young)
And now a little drek regarding the Mormonic nature of the Mormon jesus:
"Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee...We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed [children] before he was crucified (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 82)."There was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that non less a person that Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha an the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it." (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 259).
"In the Church councils, it was spoken of: "Joseph F. Smith_ He spoke upon the marriage in Cana of Galilee. He thought Jesus was the bridegroom and Mary and Martha the brides."(Journal of Wilford Woodruff, July 22, 1883).
"The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were Mormons (Jedediah Grant, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 346)
. "One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that great loved Jesus, such as Mary and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them and associated with the much; and when he arose from the dead, instead of first showing himself to his chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them--namely, Mary Magdalene. Now, it would be very natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were his wives." (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 159).
Perhaps the few quotes I've offered can instruct as to why The Catholic Chruch does not recognize Mormonic baptism ... Mormonism is not Christianity and teaches the antithesis of Christianity.
But since you asked what **my** specific **Christian** denomination teaches about the “blood of Christ”, yes I believe that. This is what my Christian church teaches.
None are so blind as those who refuse to see.
Some “Christians” would do well to open up a concordance and look things up once and a while.
Heaven forbid that the underlying Greek and Hebrew text beneath the english translations would EVER open one’s eyes to deeper understanding of the meaning of a passage. Perhaps those concordances would open your eyes to what Christians believe.
Christians also understand that the term “Son” is a relational term, not an ontological term. After all Christians believe Jesus IS God, just as the Heavenly Father IS the same God, just like the Holy Spirit IS the same God.
Or are you believing that God had sex with himself? Or that which is Spirit could physically have sex with a human.
Yes, silly you indeed.
Maybe they're giving him a good deal on a slightly used planet?
Chuckle
Are you saying that Mormons do NOT hold the Book of Mormon to be the highest authority in their religious belief?
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YES I AM. Their Prophet is the highest authority.
And yes they are that brainwashed and they don’t notice inconsistencies and frankly are told there aren’t any when there are.
And for the last time, Smith came up with the doctrine after he wrote the book of Mormon and plagiarized entire chapters.
Here is a link to a whole bunch that exposes the plagarism.
Smith’s doctrines in 1830 were a lot closer to Christianity then they became by 1833.
http://utlm.org/topicalindexa.htm#Plagiarism
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