I don't engage in 'idolitry', whatever that is.
Posted on 12/28/2011 5:47:17 PM PST by rzman21
How I led Catholics Out of the Church STEVE WOOD I was a Protestant for twenty years before I became a Catholic. I led many people out of the Catholic Church. My formula for getting Catholics to leave the Church usually consisted of three steps.
Step 1: Get Catholics to have a conversion experience in a Protestant setting. Most Fundamentalist, Evangelical, and charismatic Protestant churches have dynamic youth programs, vibrant Wednesday and Sunday evening services, and friendly small-group bible studies. In addition, they host special crusades, seminars and concerts. At the invitation of a Protestant friend, a Catholic may begin attending one or more of these events while still going to Sunday Mass at his local parish. Most Protestant services proclaim a simple gospel: repent from sin and follow Christ in faith. They stress the importance of a personal relationship with Jesus and the reward of eternal life. Most of the Catholics who attend these services are not accustomed to hearing such direct challenges to abandon sin and follow Christ. As a result, many Catholics experience a genuine conversion.
Protestants should be commended for their zeal in promoting conversions. Catholic leaders need to multiply the opportunities for their people to have such conversions in Catholic settings. The reason is simple. About five out of ten people adopt the beliefs of the denomination where they have their conversion. This percentage is even higher for those who had profound conversions or charismatic experiences that were provided by Protestants. (Believe me, I know; I was a graduate of an Assembly of God college and a youth minister in two charismatic churches.)
Protestant pastors, evangelists, youth leaders, and lay ministers are acutely aware that conversion experiences in Protestant settings often lead to a Protestant faith and church membership. Why do so many Catholic leaders fail to see this? Why are they so nonchalant about a process that has pulled hundreds of thousands of Catholics out of the Church?
Step 2: Give their conversion a Protestant interpretation.
A genuine conversion is one of life's most precious experiences, comparable to marriage or the birth of a child. Conversion awakens a deep hunger for God. Effective Protestant ministries train workers to follow up on this spiritual longing.
Before a stadium crusade, I would give follow-up workers a six-week training course. I showed them how to present a Protestant interpretation of the conversion experience with a selective use of bible verses. The scripture of choice was of course John 3:3, the "born-again" verse: "Jesus declared, 'I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.'
I used the "touch and go" scripture technique, similar to that used by pilots training for landings and takeoffs. We would briefly touch down on John 3:3 to show that being born again was necessary for eternal life. Then I would describe conversion in terms of being born again. We would make a hasty takeoff before reading John 3:5 which stresses the necessity of being "born of water and spirit." I never mentioned that for 20 centuries the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, echoing the unanimous teaching of the Church fathers, understood this passage as referring to the Sacrament of Baptism! And I certainly never brought up Titus 3:5 ("He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit") as a parallel reference to John 3:5.
In my experience as a Protestant, all the Catholics who had a conversion in a Protestant setting lacked a firm grasp of their Catholic faith.
In twenty years of Protestant ministry, I never met a Catholic who knew that John 3:3-8 describes the sacrament of Baptism. It wasn't hard to convince them to disregard the sacraments along with the Church that emphasized the sacraments.
Proverbs says: "He who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him" (18:17). Catholics without a scriptural foundation for their Catholic beliefs never hear "the rest of the story." My selective use of scripture made the Protestant perspective seem so absolutely sure. Over time, this one-sided approach to scripture caused Catholics to reject their Catholic faith.
Step 3: Accuse the Catholic church of denying salvation by grace.
Catholics often consider Protestants who proselytize to be bigoted, narrow-minded, or prejudiced. This is unfair and inaccurate; a profound charity energizes their misguided zeal.
There was only one reason I led Catholics out of the Church: I thought they were on their way to hell. I mistakenly thought the Catholic Church denied that salvation was by grace; I knew that anyone who believed this wasn't going to heaven. Out of love for their immortal souls, I worked tirelessly to convert them.
I used Ephesians 2:8-9 to convince Catholics that it was imperative for them to leave the Church:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast. First I would say, "The Bible says that salvation is by grace and not by works. Right?" Their answer was always yes. Then I would say, "The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is by works. Right?" (I never met a Catholic who did not say yes. Every Catholic I met during my twenty years of ministry confirmed my misconception that Catholicism taught salvation is by works instead of grace.) Finally, I would declare, "The Catholic Church is leading people to hell by denying salvation is by grace. You'd better join a church that teaches the true way to heaven."
Because I would also do a "touch and go" in Ephesians, I rarely quoted verse 10 which says, "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Listen carefully to stadium evangelists, televangelists, and radio preachers. Nine times out of ten they will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 with great emphasis and never mention verse 10.
We are not slaves futilely trying to earn salvation by doing "works of the law" (Eph. 2:8-9). Yet as sons of God we are inspired and energized by the Holy Spirit to do "good works" as we cooperate with our heavenly father in extending the Kingdom of God (Eph. 2:10). Catholicism believes and teaches the full message of Ephesians 2:8-10, without equivocating or abbreviating the truth.
For twenty centuries the Catholic Church has faithfully taught that salvation is by grace. Peter the first pope said, "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved" (Acts 15:11). The Catechism of the Catholic Church, fully endorsed by Pope John Paul II, says, "Our justification comes from the grace of God" (section 1996).
Protestantism started when Martin Luther declared that we are justified (made righteous) by faith alone. At the time I was leading Catholics out of the Church, I wasn't aware that Martin Luther had added the word alone to his translation of Romans 3:28 in order to prove his doctrine. (The word alone is not found in any contemporary Protestant English translation of Romans 3:28.) I didn't realize that the only place the bible mentions "faith alone" in the context of salvation is in James 2:24, where the idea of faith alone is explicitly refuted: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." This verse was troubling, but I either ignored it, or twisted it to mean something other that what the verse and its context clearly taught.
Should Catholics participate in Protestant events?
I have no objection to Catholics participating in Protestant-oriented events and worthwhile ecumenical activities provided that:
they have a firm grasp of their Catholic faith. they know their faith well enough to articulate it to a non-Catholic, using scripture and the Church fathers. they have the maturity to realize that the most profound presence of Christ isn't necessarily found in the midst of loud noise and high emotion, but in quiet moments like Eucharistic adoration (see 1 Kings 19:11-12). Unfortunately, the majority of Catholic men born after WWII don't meet the above conditions. For them, attending Protestant functions may be opening a door that will lead them right out of the Catholic Church.
There are now thousands of Catholic men on the brink of leaving the one Church Christ died to establish. I recently heard of a group of Catholic men who decided not to consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church in their small-group bible study. They believed that all they needed was scripture alone. Three of these men claimed that they no longer believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I can tell you from experience where this group is headed: straight out of the Catholic Church.
Over the past three decades, thousands of Catholics have left the Church for Protestant pastures. The largest church in America is the Catholic Church; the second largest group of Christians in America is former-Catholics. The Catholic men's movement has a solemn obligation to help men discover the biblical and historical roots of their Catholic faith. Then, rather than leaving, they will become instruments to help others discover the treasures of Catholicism.
Remember that a man who leaves the Church will often take his family with him — for generations. It took my family four hundred years — 10 generations — to come back to the Church after a generation of my ancestors in Norway, England, Germany and Scotland decided to leave the Catholic Church.
As one whose family has made the round-trip back to Catholicism, let me extend a personal plea to Catholic men, especially the leaders of various Catholic men's groups: don't put untrained Catholics in a Protestant setting. They might gain a short-term religious experience, but they take the long-term risk of losing their faith. It would be highly irresponsible to expose them to Protestantism before they are fully exposed to Catholicism.
At my dad's funeral twenty-nine years ago, I tearfully sang his favorite hymn, Faith of Our Fathers. Little did my dad, a minister's son, or I realize that the true faith of our forefathers was Roman Catholicism. Every day I thank God for bringing me back to the ancient Church of my ancestors. Every year God gives me breath on this earth I will keep proclaiming to both my Protestant brethren and to cradle Catholics the glorious faith of our fathers.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT
Wood, Steve. "How I led Catholics Out of the Church." St. Joseph's Covenant Newsletter 4 no. 2 (March/April 1998).
Reprinted with permission St. Joseph's Covenant Newsletter.
THE AUTHOR
Steve Wood is the founder of St. Joseph's Covenant Keepers (SJCK), a dynamic apostolate for Catholic men, and runs the web site dads.org.
Copyright © 1998 St. Joseph's Covenant Newsletter
May the Lord bless you and keep you safe in the palm of His mighty hand.
Like a lot of Catholics I got really sickened by the handling of the sex-abuse scandals, particularly during John Paul II’s reign.
I even thought about becoming Eastern Orthodox, but my readings in the Church Fathers about the role of the Pope of Rome in the first millenium kept me from “Doxing” as some Byzantine Catholics call it.
Being an Eastern Christian in the Catholic Church is not an easy thing because most Roman Catholics I meet almost always question whether or not I’m a “real” Catholic.
But my confidence in the Chair of St. Peter in spite of the flaws of its occupants has kept me from leaving the Church.
We can only hope that God’s grace and mercy remains available to those who apostatize from the Catholic faith.
This post really has nothing to do with people who were born into Protestantism as I was, but it does have to do with the arrogance of Evangelicals who reject the Christian faith of their Catholic neighbors and target them for conversion.
For the most part, we don’t see Catholic missionaries running around targeting Protestants for conversion.
But the visceral reaction on the part of many of the Evangelical posters shows their anti-Catholic contempt for the Catholic Church’s teachings about its own members.
Reaganaut,
My theory is that this disruptor is a mormonic cultist whose intent here is to cause dissension among Christian brothers and take the focus off the false religion of mormonism.
... and you know who the “accuser of the brethren is”. This is a demonic helper of his, come to poke at sore spots within the true Body of Christ on Earth.
For the record, if anyone recognizes the Biblical Jesus Christ, Son of God, Eternal God as their Savior and has entrusted themself to the Gospel of Grace as the source of salvation, I consider them a brother in Christ, regardless of denomination. Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Other.
“They will know you by your love for one another.”
Conversely, anyone who does not love other Christians is either not walking with Christ, or not one of His.
My attitude about the Papacy is not unlike that of many our military men and women.
They salute the rank and not neccessarily the person holding that rank.
The Evangelical attitude about ecclesiastical authority is “I will not serve.”
I wonder who first said that.
Unfortunately, the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops. The Church is guilty of much. If it is of any help, the Divine Comedy is of great insight, particularly the Inferno.
Being an Eastern Christian in the Catholic Church is not an easy thing because most Roman Catholics I meet almost always question whether or not I’m a “real” Catholic.
A lot of them have no great grasp on what is a real Catholic. That, however, is thankfully changing.
But the visceral reaction on the part of many of the Evangelical posters shows their anti-Catholic contempt for the Catholic Church’s teachings about its own members.
When your very basis is about what you are not, versus what you are, why then, almost anything goes.
I like Milton's take on it.
Ecumenism with the Protestants has always been very one-sided since Vatican II.
The Catholics have moved closer to Protestantism, but the Protestants have remained hardened in their ways toward the Catholic Church.
We can’t water down our teachings about the Catholic Church being the visible Body of Christ to placate dissenters.
I think that’s what they want. It’s funny how they like trying to marginalize us by comparing us with a 19th century sect founded by a certain Joseph Smith.
Catholics have a lot more to worry about from Evangelical preachers seducing waivering or unwary Catholics than we do from the followers of Joseph Smith, unless you live in Utah.
My time in the Traditionalist Movement in the 1990s made me rather wary of this phony I’m OK you’re OK ecumenism that has only led to an exodus from the Catholic Church.
There has only been a trickle of Protestants like myself and a few other Catholic FReepers who have headed in the other direction.
This requires a qualified response.
On the international level, there is one pro-family Lds group that has indeed at times weighed in on these matters. (Of course, they've also widely distributed a statement that we can become gods)
On the national level, your statement is false. The Lds church has had absolutely NO structured campaign to either oppose abortion or the homosexual agenda.
Regionally, the Mormon church DID weigh in significantly with resources. These were two propositions on the ballot in CA (years 2008 and 2000). These indeed were propositions designed to protect marriage. But regional action done in one state out of 50 a grand total of two times doesn't make the Mormon church to be pro-family crusaders in the public square!
Besides, if you want to count regional action, 'twas the Mormon church getting behind gay rights in Salt Lake City (treating sexual orientation as minority class status for companies with 100 employees or more; as well as forcing those renting to sanction homosexuality) that was the catalyst in that being passed a few years ago.
The Mormon church is a hierarchical church. Believe me, if they weighed in formally on these matters, you would know it. (That's how we knew the CA ballot propositions).
They haven't. In fact, the Lds church has turned against conservatism on matters of illegal aliens.
Name me one formal pro-life issue -- some battle in the public square -- they have weighed in on...go ahead...I'm waiting. Instead, they've invited Harry Reid on the BYU campus to speak to all the students & profs!
They haven’t. In fact, the Lds church has turned against conservatism on matters of illegal aliens.
>>I’m a Catholic, so believe me when I hear stuff like this coming out of the bishops’ conference I cringe.
Human dignity is one thing, but obeying the law it quite another.
Ah. I see. You are God. Nice. How about waving some riches my way just to prove that you are not just another tent preaching sham?
Obviously then, you are saying that Jesus is NOT within you...And you mock those who claim they have the presence of Jesus...
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
So God hasn't revealed that mystery to you...And obviously, neither has your religion...I suspect because it hasn't been revealed to them, either...
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Apparently you are thinking otherwise, but according to own admission AND the testimony of scripture, you are not one of the sheep of the flock of Jesus...
What is it you think you are teaching people???
The Bible isn’t an auto manual.
Apostasy only applies to Catholics who become Protestants.
What about that don’t you understand? A Catholic who becomes a Protestant loses his/her salvation.
But Protestants who were never Catholics are “Separated Brethren”? They are somehow “saved” or “Christians” in a sense that former Catholics who become Protestants are not?
Hell will freeze over before I turn closer to your idolitry.
“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the Popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen. ”
Martin Luther
My husband and I, then in our thirties, were looking into returning to our Catholic faith. We attended weekly Mass, and the Neumann Center religious classes. We did this for more than 3 months. Then we returned home for Christmas. After the Christmas mass, as we were driving back to our relative’s home, my husband and I looked at each and almost simultaneously said. “This isn't going to work. There is something seriously missing here.” Of course, we now have words to use for this. What was missing was the Spirit. What was missing was that God did not need us in the Catholic faith or want us to be there.
The following week I started looking at Protestant churches. I believe that we were led by the Spirit to the denomination to which we have been faithful members for 29 years. This is the church in which God wanted us to be. How we found it has a somewhat miraculous story behind it.
If one will sincerely ask God for direction, he will lead you to the Christian denomination in which He wants you to participate. Possibly that is the Catholic faith, but maybe not.
I don't engage in 'idolitry', whatever that is.
Duh - ‘idolitry’ is Yoda-speak for “I try Idol” - and frankly, I’m with they guy. I don’t want anything to do with that show either....
I see your “auto manual” and raise you a ‘jumbo shrimp’
Neither do I. He doesn't sing well and his songs are forgettable.
You do realize that Catholics are the primary target of Mormon missionaries and many more Catholics defect to Mormonism than Evangelicals. There are several reasons (like hierarchy and percentage of nominal believers) that Mormons target Catholics. When I was training to be a Mormon missionary, we were specifically told to seek out Catholics for conversion. I have never heard such a thing in my 20 years as an Evangelical.
So your statement is far from correct rzman.
Many Evangelicals accept Catholics as our brothers and sisters in Christ, whereas we do not accept Mormons as such.
Also, John Paul the II, put Mormons and protestants (incl Evangelicals) in separate categories - the first NOT being Christians and the second being Christians.
I can find the quote if you wish.
But Protestants who were never Catholics are “Separated Brethren”? They are somehow “saved” or “Christians” in a sense that former Catholics who become Protestants are not?
>>You don’t understand Catholic theology, and I don’t have time at the moment to go into detail.
The Catholic Church is the Visible Body of Christ, and for a Catholic to leave the Body of Christ equals apostasy.
Protestants who are validly baptized with a Trinitarian form belong to the Church in a mystical manner.
If you were born Protestant, you lack the same culpability for your state of schism and material heresy that a Catholic who leaves to become a Protestant does.
As St. Jerome, whom Protestants quote selectively, writes around 400 A.D.
“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but Your Blessedness, that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails.”
Letter of Jerome to Pope Damasus, 374 A.D. 15,2 J1346
“Yet, though your greatness terrifies me, your kindness attracts me. From the priest I demand the safe-keeping of the victim, from the shepherd the protection due to the sheep. Away with all that is overweening; let the state of Roman majesty withdraw. My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. But since by reason of my sins I have betaken myself to this desert which lies between Syria and the uncivilized waste, I cannot, owing to the great distance between us, always ask of your sanctity the holy thing of the Lord. Consequently I here follow the Egyptian confessors who share your faith, and anchor my frail craft under the shadow of their great argosies. I know nothing of Vitalis; I reject Meletius; I have nothing to do with Paulinus. He that gathers not with you scatters; he that is not of Christ is of Antichrist.”
Letter of Jerome to Pope Damasus, 376 A.D., 2
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