Posted on 12/27/2011 8:24:19 PM PST by RnMomof7
Rome, Italy, Dec 8, 2011 / 04:28 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Benedict XVI reflected on the biblical description of a “woman clothed with the sun” in his remarks at Rome's Spanish Steps on the 2011 Feast of the Immaculate Conception.
“What is the meaning of this image? It represents the Church and Our Lady at the same time,” the Pope told the crowd assembled before the nearby statue commemorating the 1854 definition of Mary's Immaculate Conception. “Before all, the 'woman' of the apocalypse is Mary herself.”
The 12th chapter of the Biblical Apocalypse – also known as the Book of Revelation – describes the glorification and persecution of “a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”
Though not named, this woman is described as the mother of the Messiah. In poetic language akin to the Bible's other prophetic books, Saint John says she faced the threat of “a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns,” and “fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God.”
Pope Benedict, offering white roses in his traditional yearly act of Marian veneration, gave listeners his insight into the connection between the Virgin Mary and the Church – portrayed in the Apocalypse through the single image of the sun-clad woman.
“She appears 'clothed in sunlight,' that is, clothed in God,” observed the Pope. “The Virgin Mary is in fact completely surrounded by the light of God and lives in God … The 'Immaculate One' reflects with all of her person the light of the 'sun' which is God.”
“Besides representing Our Lady, this sign personifies the Church, the Christian community of all times,” he continued.
The Church, he explained, is “pregnant, in the sense that she carries Christ” and “must give birth to him to the world.”
“This is the labor of the pilgrim Church on earth, that in the midst of the consolations of God and the persecutions of the world, she must bring Christ to men.”
Because the Church continues to bring Jesus into the world, Pope Benedict said, it “finds opposition in a ferocious adversary,” symbolized in scripture by the “dragon” that has “tried in vain to devour Jesus,” and now “directs his attacks against the woman – the Church – in the desert of the world.”
“But in every age the Church is supported by the light and the strength of God,” the Pope said. “She is nurtured in the desert with the bread of his word and the Holy Eucharist.”
“And in this way, in every tribulation, through all of the trials that she finds in the course of the ages and in the different parts of the world, the Church suffers persecution, but comes out the victor.”
Pope Benedict said the Church should not fear persecution, which is bound to arise, but will be defeated.
“The only pitfall of which the Church can and must be afraid is the sin of her members,” he warned, highlighting the key difference between the Church and the woman who is its prototype.
“While in fact Mary is immaculate – free from every stain of sin – the Church is holy, but at the same time marked by our sins.”
While sinless herself, Mary remains in solidarity with the Church struggling against sin.
“That is why the people of God, pilgrims in time, turn to their heavenly mother and ask for her help,” explained Pope Benedict.
He stressed the world's need for the hope brought by the “woman clothed with the sun” – “especially in this difficult moment for Italy, for Europe and for different parts of the world.”
“May Mary help us to see that there is a light beyond the veil of fog that appears to envelop reality,” he declared.
“For this also we, especially on this day, never cease to ask with filial trust for her help: 'O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to you.'”
Thank You Mad Dawg there is wisdom in your post. My God supplies all my needs. We do have needs.
Maybe my anal points are more about need priorities? Should wants and needs for material things be less and less as we grow in grace?
Well, then, it should be a simple matter to post the Roman Catholic doctrine dealing with this aspect of Romans 12, and it would be pertinent to the discussion.
Is there some reason it's not possible for you to do so?
Revelation 12, not Romans 12, sorry.
It must be rather interesting in the twilight between Judaism and Christianity, belonging to neither and accepted by neither.
How are the benefits?
For someone who has swallowed the kool-aid
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
from the Mary queen of heaven Cult, one could
not recognize a straight answer.
Yes we are. And we could go on and on with examples of just that.
. . . Our gaze is directed toward you in great fear, to you do we turn with ever-more insistent faith in these times marked by many uncertainties and fears for the present and future of our planet. Together we lift our confident and sorrowful petition to you, the first fruit of humanity redeemed by Christ, finally freed from the slavery of evil and sin: hear the cry of the pain of victims of war and so many forms of violence that bloody the earth. Clear away the darkness of sorrow and worry, of hate and vengeance. Open up our minds and hearts to faith and forgiveness!” —Pope John Paul II
He wasn’t asking Mary to pray “for him”. He was praying “to” Mary.
We are told ourselves to go “boldly before the throne of grace”.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. He is no respecter of persons and the Father honors anyone who follows Christ.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Galatians 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
Catholics claim that Mary has better access to God then they do which completely disrespecting the Holy Spirit which scripture says intercedes for us.
Romans 8:26, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
Please don’t insult us by saying that Catholics don’t put Mary in the place of God when scripture clearly shows they do.
"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep." —John 10:7
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." —John 10:1
The twelve stars are the twelve tribes of Israel. Just one more proof that Israel is the woman and not Mary.
I don't know any believers who do not accept a Messianic Jew as a fellow believer and brother or sister in Christ.
I do indeed wonder where that put virtually all of the early church in the book of Acts, along with the apostles and Jesus Himself.
Jesus Himself also intercedes for us.
Romans 8:26-27 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 8:31-39 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As religious expression, how would you evaluate the Song of Solomon:
Your view?
It's also the Mazzaroth, which corresponds.
I do indeed wonder where that put virtually all of the early church in the book of Acts, along with the apostles and Jesus Himself.
All of the Apostles were Messianic Jews. Amen ! Sister.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
That’s a proof?
See above for why I decline the gambit. Your side uses words like “proof” and “argument” in ways I do not recognize.
My side? That’s interesting, given my replies on the thread.
Do you actually have an answer? I answer to Jesus (of the Trinitarian variety, not the whack a doodle variety). I believe in the Faith handed down from the Apostles, not some backroom narcotic fantasy masquerading as faith bridging the gap between Judaism and Christianity and failing at both.
And none of them believed that Jesus was God the Father. How do you handle that little tidbit?
Think Christ and His bride the church and read it again.
Finally a response from someone who isn’t simply flaming!
Yes, you are very correct in discerning that the Blessed Virgin Mary, according to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, based on her sinlessness and the doctrine of Original sin, did not experience the pangs of labor. At least, several Church Fathers asserted so, using precisely your logic.
But try and grasp this: like other biblical prophecy, Revelation uses a prophetic sign in the present as a foreshadowing for events yet to come. Mary is that sign, but she is a sign for the church. So the woman in Revelation 12 is Mary, but she is a symbol, or archetype, for the Church. I was trying to explain to Quix that all that the Church achieves by bringing Christ to us, Mary shares in by bringing Christ into the world, so that the Church may bring him to us.
Did Mary experience labor pains as a result of her own original sin? Many church fathers speculated that she must not have.
Did Mary experience suffering as a result of dwelling in a fallen world? Absolutely. Mary was told “A sword shall pierce your heart” — Luke 2.
And in Catholic iconography, she is often pictured with a bleeding heart. Hence, the phrase.
Finally a response from someone who isn’t simply flaming!
Yes, you are very correct in discerning that the Blessed Virgin Mary, according to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, based on her sinlessness and the doctrine of Original sin, did not experience the pangs of labor. At least, several Church Fathers asserted so, using precisely your logic.
But try and grasp this: like other biblical prophecy, Revelation uses a prophetic sign in the present as a foreshadowing for events yet to come. Mary is that sign, but she is a sign for the church. So the woman in Revelation 12 is Mary, but she is a symbol, or archetype, for the Church. I was trying to explain to Quix that all that the Church achieves by bringing Christ to us, Mary shares in by bringing Christ into the world, so that the Church may bring him to us.
Did Mary experience labor pains as a result of her own original sin? Many church fathers speculated that she must not have.
Did Mary experience suffering as a result of dwelling in a fallen world? Absolutely. Mary was told “A sword shall pierce your heart” — Luke 2.
And in Catholic iconography, she is often pictured with a bleeding heart. Hence, the phrase.
For Mary, Christ’s birth was complete when he died on the cross, and was resurrected.
You must have not caught the “one more” part of that post.
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