Posted on 12/15/2011 10:14:12 AM PST by Cronos
Sadly, many in our brotherhood would answer “yes” to this question. Denominations have for years taught that it does not matter what church you attend, as long as a person is sincere and honest. Many in the Lord’s church have swallowed this idea. They cry long and hard that there are sincere, devout Christians in any given denomination. It is no wonder, then, that many congregations of the Lord’s church have joined hands with denominational churches to promote or to participate in any number of things. Of course, they consider their actions to have Biblical backing. They proclaim the words of Jesus in defense of their endeavors: "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold” (Jn.10:16). To them, “this fold” represents the Church of Christ (denominational concept of the Lord’s church), and the other sheep outside of “this fold” represent God’s children scattered among the denominations. Does this interpretation have credence? Is it the case that there are devout Christians in denominations? The answer is no to both questions.
The passage under consideration does not support the idea that there are devout Christians in denominations. To the dismay of those who would espouse this soul-damning doctrine, this passage destroys their convoluted thinking. There is no hint of such a doctrine taught in this passage, nor is it even possible that this passage could teach such. The New Testament knows nothing of denominationalism. In the first century, there was one church and only one church (Eph.4:4). Although the seeds of denominationalism were being planted during the first century, these seeds did not bloom until after the close of New Testament times. To claim that John 10:16 deals in any respect with denominationalism is to force a 21st century interpretation on a 1st century passage.
The latter half of the verse under consideration inflicts even more damage upon the idea that there are devout Christians in denominations. Christ proclaimed that the “other sheep” would be brought into “one fold” under the care of “one shepherd.” This one fold is the one church! And this one church is under the care of the Great Shepherd Jesus Christ! Those in denominations follow the voice of Luther, or Calvin, or Wesley, or Pope John Paul II, but they are not following the voice of the Great Shepherd! The other sheep to whom Jesus was referring were the Gentiles. Though there were some Gentiles who sought God, and anticipated the coming of the Messiah, the Jews and Gentiles remained separated. Through Christ’s death, he would bring both Jew and Gentile together in one body, one fold (Eph.2:14)! The Lord’s church today is a fulfillment of John 10:16—both Jew and Gentile in one body under the care of the Great Shepherd.
Are there devout Christians in denominations? No. Are there children of God in denominations? Yes, but only because they chose to leave the safety of the one fold, the Lord’s church, to follow the doctrines and commandments of men. Those who have done so must repent and return to the church of our Lord before it is eternally too late! PM
Agreed - I’m not sure how it gets into their heads, but most say, “Our preacher says only the Baptists will go to heaven and everybody else is in error.” That’s most Texas Baptists I know.
“he first indicates that the true Church will be that founded upon Peter”
The statement peter makes is what the Church is founded on not Peter himself.
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it”
LLS
The measure is Christ. What do they say about Him and what do they say He did about Sin? If they say He is not unique and not God can I say they are a Christian Denomination? No. If they say there is no such thing as Sin? Heaven's no.
Without those, they would be a Cult. But who would I be to say that none of the elect of God within them would not go to Heaven? Do I recommend them No. Do I say there will not be trouble, No. But who would I be to deny God?
“The first indicates that the true Church will be that founded upon Peter.”
That interpretation is a misreading and achieved by taking one part of the text out of the context of what precedes it, in the whole conversation Jesus is having with the disciples.
The whole begins with:
Matthew 16:13 - And when they came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked his disciples saying, “Who do men say that I the Son of Man am?”
Matthew 16:14 - So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, some Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
Matthew 16:15 - He said to them, “But who do you say that I am.”
Matthew 16:16 - And Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”
Matthew 16:17 - Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in Heaven.”
Matthew 16:18 - “And I say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”
In the original Greek it is clear that the text is using a play on words with “the rock” and Peter’s name.
And “the rock” that Jesus is referring to?
It is not Peter, it is Peter’s answer: that Jesus is the Christ.
THAT - Peter’s answer - is “the rock” upon which he will build His church. He blesses Peter for His Father having revealed that answer to Peter.
Jesus then goes on to tell the disciples to not reveal this knowledge - “this rock” of His church (that He is the Christ) to others, for the time for that had not yet come.
That The Wisconsin Synod doesn’t allow non-members to receive Communion hardly equates to a doctrine that non-members are all going to Hell.
That The Wisconsin Synod doesn’t allow non-members to receive Communion hardly equates to a doctrine that non-members are all going to Hell.
Thanks. That’s two criteria you use to draw your line.
I have no dog in this fight. Draw your line wherever you choose. I just get a little bit stressed by those who claim they don’t have a line when they do.
But please note that Christ did not say, “Wherever two or three gather together in my name as long as they agree with sr4402 as to my divinity and the nature of sin.”
But! Church of Christ make great neighbors as they believe that they must work out their salvation.
“I am not trying to say that every Protestant group, or even most, believe this. Only those Protestant churches which claim the others have fallen away.”
By your own understanding, “Protestant” refers to a large number of groups and denominations, and so, in what you think “Protestants” believe, a very easy word - “some” placed just before “Protestants”, would make for more truthful statements as to what “Protestants” believe (or not).
Using the term “apostate” to refer to members who leave their church does. It’s pretty much the definition of “You’re going to hell”. Please understand: I don’t think they are, because they profess Christ and acknowledge the Triune God; they think I am, despite the fact that I profess Christ and acknowledge the Triune God. That saddens me.
I have not studied the Quaker doctrines in detail Friend.
All I can say is that if one follows the New Testament it says that they will be saved.
i guess Peter was preaching another gospel when he gave “instructions” in Acts 2:38.
for that matter St Augustine must have been following another gospel as well.
Do you know "a lot of people in that denomination" from which to draw that conclusion? Or are you just extrapolating based on the handful you actually know?
Oddly enough, quoting scripture....
Philippians 2:12 12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
“All I can say is that if one follows the New Testament it says that they will be saved.”
That pretty much sums up the feelings of most reasonably educated members of the churches of Christ. What others don’t get about it is that this principle extends not only to theology but to practice. Such things as what they call themselves. Members of the churches of Christ call themselves Christians because that, according to the Bible, is what disciples were called in the first century. They weren’t called Lutherans, or Methodists, of Southern Baptists, or any other name somebody dreamed up.
Something that intrigues me is that at least 3 of these groups (LDS, JW, SDA) were founded in NY within about 60 years and 100 miles of each other.I seem to recall someone calling that area "burned over district" - I think from the fact of previous religious awakenings. Have you seen reference to that?
The burned over district came after the excitements of Charles Finney and the "Second Great Awakening". All manner of oddities resulted. I think the "mind science" cults have roots then and there as well.
I've heard some opine that we'll see another burned over district, where we now have the Bible Belt.
The churches of Christ seek to be guided in their faith and practice by the teachings of Christ and the apostles and deem the New Testament scriptures to be sufficient for that purpose without binding the extrabiblical writings of mankind.
Would CoC members affirm the content of the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed? What statements, if any, would be denied?
I find it hard to believe that people don't find denominationalism sinful. Jesus prayed for the unity of the church.
If you accept this concept the remediation is to acknowledge that the church belongs to God and it is not ours to carve up or redefine. That is the reason the congregations of the church of Christ take the positionthey do on denominations.
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