Posted on 12/08/2011 7:46:56 AM PST by Colofornian
"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" Apostle George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142
"Whosoever... does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist...," Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 176
[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
"He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation," Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again." Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a God, and also upon Brigham Young, our Governor” Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, p. 88
"It is to be feared that in course of a century, some gifted man like Paul, some splendid orator, who will be able by his eloquence to attract crowds of the thousands who are ever ready to hear, and be carried away by, the sounding brass and tinkling cymbal of sparkling oratory, may command a hearing, may succeed in breathing a new life into this modern Mahometanism, and make the name of the martyred Joseph ring as loud, and stir the souls of men as much, as the mighty name of Christ itself. Sharon, Palmyra, Manchester, Kirtland, Far West, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Ramus. Nauvoo, and the Carthage Jail, may become holy and venerable names, places of classic interest, in another age; like Jerusalem, the Garden of Gethsemane, the Mount of Olives, and Mount Calvary to the Christian, and Mecca and Medina to the Turk." Brigham Young, History of the Church, Vol. 7, p.40-41
Do you get to talk with many EXmo’s about what the LDS was doing to them? What did it take for you to escape?
- - - - - -
Yes, I do. I am involved, in varying degrees with several of the ministries to Mormons and thus have a lot of Ex-Mo friends. The stories are about the same from all of us.
Re: What did it take for me to ‘escape’, the short answer was it took threads like this one. Even though I started to leave in the early days of the internet and thus wasn’t online, I knew some Christians who pointed things out like what we see here, confronted me, weren’t afraid to totally tick me off and make me angry. It was the anger and the desire to ‘prove’ the ‘antis’ were lying and taking things out of context that got me to reasearch, look up claims and quotes, compare footnotes of the antis and the LDS defenders rather than just repeat what I was told by other LDS. When I did the research (and I spent over a year on it) I discovered that it wasn’t the antis who were lying to me, it was my own church.
Leaving Mormonism was painful, and it cost me a great deal. However, our ways are not Gods, and when I moved back home from Utah after going ‘inactive’ in Mormonism, I had a good Christian friend (now my husband) who helped lead me to the Lord, a new job, my family back (I was disowned when I joined Mormonism) and it took being a Mormon and leaving that for God to break me enough so I could become a Christian. I hope that makes sense.
Nah, Elsie wasn’t scolding you, he was just channeling “mormon dude” whereas he replies as a faithful mormon redneck.
Issac Hale was never LDS (well not until after he died).
So Issac was "DEAD DUNKED", lol
The old saying,"You just can't make this stuff up", not true, Joseph Smith did.
Maybe you have the story of how this was invented by Joseph Smith to appease his father after another son had died without baptism. Gotta give ole' J.Smitty credit, he had an imagination.
Maybe you have the story of how this was invented by Joseph Smith to appease his father after another son had died without baptism.
- - - - - - -
That is pretty much it. Joe’s bro, Alvin, died before Joseph claimed to have gotten the plates. There is some question whether the doctrine was to appease his father (a Universalist and occultist) or his mother (more mainstream but still occultist), but there is no denying that the doctrine developed as a result of the question that Alvin would be condemned to hell because he was not baptized.
Here is the Wiki article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Smith_%281798-1823%29
And while not directly related, this article shows how the LDS version of events couldn’t have happened as they say it did (relating mostly to the first vision)
http://utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims1.htm
And he has led them straight to hell on the eternity express . . . why can't they see it?
And he has led them straight to hell on the eternity express . . . why can’t they see it?
- - - - - -
Ok, I will admit this answer may seem lame to those who have not been LDS, but those who have will understand it perfectly.
They can’t see it because they are told NOT to see it. The LDS responses you see here are not thought through individual responses. They are pat answers that they have been told. The LDS are conditioned to not think for themselves, in fact, they are often (I know I was) warned that researching the LDS chuch to much would cause me to ‘lose my testimony’ of Mormonism and lead to ‘apostasy’ (which is exactly what happened).
Mormons want the LDS church to be ‘true’ more than they want to know the truth - it is an emotional not a rational religion and the leadership (all the way back to Smith) feeds this. One way they do that is to ‘demonize’ all apostates and ‘antis’ and to constantly repeat the same things like “we don’t worship Joseph Smith”, “we love our Elder Brother” “Jesus is the Christ”, “Anti’s are only in it for the money” “we are Christians”, “Joseph Smith was an abolitionist” etc. without actually thinking about what they are saying or even looking at anything that is not ‘faith promoting’ and put out by the LDS church or apologists. They are discouraged from going into Christian bookstores and reading non LDS religious material. All their info becomes filtered through Mormonism.
There is a VERY High level of thought control in Mormonism, and the biggest breakthrough, the one that gets people to leave, is getting them to actually question and think for themselves.
They can’t see they worship Smith or that they are hell bound because they are brainwashed by constantly being told they are not doing those things and there really is no Hell as Christians believe.
Here is a link to a website I use to obtain information on the mormans. This is not exactly what I wanted, but it gives insight on what they do, there is a good video there as well. Meanwhile I will continue to try and find the story of Smith making this ritual up.
http://1857massacre.com/MMM/lds_proxy_baptism_of_massacre_victims.htm
Amen.
Also...please pay attention to my next two posts for a unique angle of looking at the historical Roman Catholic church -- diced and sliced in a similar manner to the way some Roman Catholics like to "slice and dice" Protestants.
First of all, this is the wrong question. The "church" doesn't belong to people.
The true Church is not an organization; the Church is a living organism.
The true Church is not brick and mortar.
In the ultimate meaning of the word, the Church is not really even an institution -- even though out of necessity these days, it has institutional dimensions.
The Greek word for "church" is ecclesia -- or ekklesia. It means "called-out ones." In other words, the church is "people."
Yes, people wear all kinds of distinct identity labels. But ultimately God's people belong to...yup, you guessed it: God (not people -- as thesaleboat mistakenly implies).
What thesaleboat is really asking here is: "How Old are your denominational traditions?"
thesaleboat seems to be attempting to make a few points here:
* The Protestant church is divided; Roman Catholics aren't;
* Due to latter "start dates" for Protestant traditions, these are somehow not genuine.
Allow me to address the second point briefly here...and then I'll reinforce it AND tackle the first bullet point in the next post.
At least four Roman Catholic "orders" are commonly known:
* Benedictines, 6th century start;
* Franciscans, 13th century start;
* Dominicans, 13th century start though following in Augustinian rules going back centuries previous to that;
* Jesuits, 16th century start
Are you telling us, the saleboat...that because these were "man-made enterprises" (along with the dozens of other Catholic-umbrella orders)...and that ALL of them started quite Johnny-come-lately...that there's something not "genuine" or "authentic" about ALL of them?
Really?
And aren't these man-made orders simply set-apart sanctuaries and outposts for ministry and spiritual growth, with a thematic “rule” governing each one?
Hence, haven't they operated as a sort of “mini-denominations” operating under the broader umbrella of Roman Catholicism?
Well, thesaleboat: How Old are Catholic-Umbrella Orders? (I think 'Sect-Orders' might even be a more appropro title)
As I mentioned in my last post: And aren't these man-made orders simply set-apart sanctuaries and outposts for ministry and spiritual growth, with a thematic “rule” governing each one? Hence, haven't they operated as a sort of “mini-denominations” operating under the broader umbrella of Roman Catholicism?
(And, btw, not all “orders” have had a Catholic umbrella; there's been Anglican, Church of England, Lutheran, Anglo-Catholic and other Protestant-based “orders” in history – some of which are still operative)
Anyway, as I mentioned on my last post, thesaleboat asked the wrong question...and didn't frame it well, anyway.
A similar question that Protestants can address Roman Catholics is:
“How Divided is the Historical Catholic Church – Per Breakdown of Its 'Sect-Orders?'”
IOW, the Catholic church is oft' presented by Catholics as one giant monolith. But it's not. And hasn't been in its history. Theologically it isn't so. Liberation theology has invaded Catholicism. Solid theological reform movements – like Jansenism – hit Catholicism in the 1600s after the Protestants hit them hard the previous century. And, of course, there've been other movements.
Some of the Roman Catholic order jumpstarters themselves bounced around before getting them off the ground. Take Isaac Thomas Hecker, founder of the Paulists (latter 19th century). Hecker was a Methodist-turned-transcendentalist-turned-member of the Catholic Redemptorist order before founding the Paulists. Hardly a “model heritage” deeply rooted Catholic.
And the “Romanizing party” was itself a party that grew stronger in the 7th century. As I look at the book of Acts, I don't see mention of “the Romanizing party” in the earliest church. Do you?
So it seems that as we look over the historical Roman Catholic church – we need a sliced-and-diced vantage point of Catholicism that unveils that Roman Catholicism isn't as “united” as it would like to present itself. Otherwise...
...why did all of these founders below...
...need to start their own endlessly diverse orders...
...based upon endlessly diverse “rules”?
Why couldn't have one said, “This is the rule of Christ. We'll follow it – and Him” ??? And then the rest of these man-made orders could have followed suit if generational stability and a unified front is so important.
| Year Founded | Name of Order [a 'Mini-Denomination' of Sorts] | Man-Made Founder | |
| 6th century onward | Benedictine-Based [Break-offs Included] | ||
| 525 | Benectines | Benedict | |
| Early 6th century | Female Benectines | Scholastica | |
| Early 10th century | Cluny [many Southern France orders were reformed under 'Clunaic lines] | Odo | |
| 11th century | Vallumbrosians | John Gualbert | |
| 1100 A.D. | Fontrevault | Robert of Arbissel | |
| 1701 | Mechlarists | Mechitar [w/16 others] | |
| Dominican/Augustinian Rule-based | Note: The Dominican order was NOT initial order based on Augustinian rule; hence not listed first | ||
| 1120 | Premonstratensions [also known as Norbertians] | Norbert [German-born who set up French orders and died residing in Italy]...so hardly a Middle-Ages localized presence only | |
| Late 12th century | Trinitarians [reformed group called 'Barefoot Trinitarians' still exists] | John of Matha | |
| 1206 | Dominicans | Dominic | |
| 1210 | Franciscan-Based | Francis of Assisi | |
| Franciscans also known as Friars Minor; Some Lay Franciscans known as Franciscan tertiaries; some Franciscans came to be known as 'Observatist Franciscans' others as 'Recollect Franciscans' and then 'Discalced Franciscans'...Such 'unity' of names even within the Franciscan bunch, eh? | |||
| 1557 | Alcantarines [Spanish Discalced Franciscans] | Peter of Alcantara | |
| Late 16th century | Camillans | Camillus [break-off of first Capuchins and then recollect Franciscans] | |
| 1540 | Jesuit-Based | ||
| 1540 | Jesuits originally known as The Society of Jesus | Ignatius Loyola | |
| Cistercian-Based | |||
| About 1099 | Cistercian | Robert of Molesne [with Stephen Harding as key early leader] | |
| 1084 | Carthusians | Bruno | |
| 1128 | Knights of Templar | Bernard of Clairvaux | |
| Mid-12th century | Gilbertines [no local presence only; a network of 25 monasteries] | Gilbert of Sempringham | |
| Latter-17th century | Trappists | Armand-Jean le Bouthillier De Rance' | |
| Ursulines/Carmelites-Based | |||
| Early 1500s | Ursulines | Angela Merici [Later, Barbe Jeanne Acarie helped establish Ursulines] | |
| Latter 16th century | Discalced Carmelites | John of the Cross a leader, but not founder | |
| 1603 | Carmelites | Barbe Jeanne Acarie | |
| Other Orders – Listed chronologically | |||
| 961 | Mt Athos | Athanasius the Athonite | |
| Early 1000s | Camaldolesians | Romauld | |
| 1113 | Victorines | William of Champeaux | |
| Early 1200s | Poor Clares | Clare | |
| 1235 | Mercedarines [Our Lady of Mercy] | Peter Nolasco and Raymond of Penafort | |
| Latter 13th century | Celestines | Celestine | |
| 1346 | Bridgetines | Bridget | |
| 1360 | Gesuati | John Colombini | |
| 14th century | Sisters of the Visitation [the Jesuatesses] | Catherine, cousin of John Colombini | |
| Latter 14th century | Brethren of the Common Life | Geert de Groote and Florentius Radewijns | |
| 1425 | Oblates of Mary [Later called Oblates of Torde' Specchi] | Frances of Rome | |
| 1436 | Minims [Ordo Fratres Minimorum] | Francis of Paola | |
| 1524 | Theatines [break-off of Orators of Divine Love] | Cajetan and Giovanni Pietro Caraffa (Pope Paul IV) | |
| 1532 | The Somaschi | Emiliani Jerome | |
| 1548 | Confraternity of the Most Holy Trinity | Philip Neri | |
| 1572 | The Brothers Hospitalliers | John of God | |
| Cistercian-Based | |||
| 1575 | Oratorians | Philip Neri | |
| 16th century | Volokolamsk | Joseph of Volokolamsk | |
| 1597 | Piarists | Joseph Calasanctius | |
| Early 1600s | Jansenism [not an “order” but a theological reform movement] | Cornelius Otto Jansen | |
| Very early 17th century | Visitation | Francis of Sales and Frances de Chantel | |
| 1633 | Sisters of Charity, Lazarites | Vincent de Paul | |
| 1737 | Vincent de Paul Society | Frederick Ozanam | |
| 1737 | Passionists | Paul of the Cross | |
| 1835 | Pious Society of Missions/Pallottini Fathers | Vincent Pallotti | |
| 1843 | Similar Pious Society of Missions for women | Vincent Pallotti | |
| Mid-19th century | Sisters of Providence/Fathers of Charity | Antonio Rosmini-Serbati | |
| 1859 | Salesians [Female version: Daughters of Our Lady Help of Christians, 3rd largest Catholic order today] | Giovanni Melchior Bosco | |
| 1880 | Sisters of the Sacred Heart | Frances Cabrini | |
| Latter 19th century | Paulists [break-off of Redemptorists] | Isaac Thomas Hecker | |
| 1903 | Catholic Daughters of the Americas | ||
| 1917 | Baptized and Unbaptized Disciples | Narayan Vaman Tilak | |
| 1933 | Little Brothers of Jesus/Little Sisters of the Sacred Heart | Formed post-humously after the rule of Charles Eugene DeFoucald | |
| 1939 | Sisters of Jesus | Formed post-humously after the rule of Charles Eugene DeFoucald | |
| 1958 | Little Brothers of the Gospel | Formed post-humously after the rule of Charles Eugene DeFoucald | |
| 1965 | Little Sisters of the Gospel | Formed post-humously after the rule of Charles Eugene DeFoucald |
That is a good site. By far the best historical reference site is
www.utlm.org
also
Mormonoutreach.org is good as well
“Noahides gotcha ALL beat!! “
Sorry, but the Church God conceived before time began has everything on earth beat! :-)
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_necrobaptism_section1.html
Interesting also to find that the Mormons have actually Dead Dunked HITLER, and was in the process of dunking many JEWs until they put a stop to it, (but how do they really know it was stopped)
- - - - -
Actually they baptized Hitler more than once and they haven’t stopped baptizing Jews. There was a lawsuit threatened and they said they removed the names of the holocaust victims that were dead dunked however, it came out last year that most of them have been re-dead dunked.
BTW, they also ‘married’ and ‘endowed’ Jesus Christ. Sigh.
http://famousdeadmormons.com/index.php?pg=6&c=historical
click on a category on the side then click ‘older’ to get a list (list is not exhaustive).
Article on Jesus and Mary -
http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2010/06/07/to-jesus-and-mary-now-mormon-and-married-mazel-tov/
Oh NO!
Sorry 'bout that screed from MD. He(?) slips in from time to time when I am away from the keyboard and types in the most outrageous things!
Oh yes, I did read that one. I believe they also Dead Dunked HIM as well.
Still dunking the Jews? How pathetic, these people are literally CRAZY, CRAZY, CRAZY.
Do you think many new converts really know this stuff? How long did it take you to figure it out? I am a curious sort, lol, and I enjoyed reading the EXmo's discussing this on that link I just gave. Some of them are really mad about being LIED to.
I just had a theory and it goes to Control of the peons. You know when you get something in the mail, and it has all those scratch off thingys, or stickers to attach to something on another page? It is all designed to give you something to do, thinking you have done your job and you are going to win. Keep them occupied and no time to think.
And will will too; Sweetie: you will too.
--MormonDupe(Resistance is not only futile; it is foolish.)
And you will too; Sweetie: you will too.
--MormonDupe(Resistance is not only futile; it is foolish.)
Just like JWs...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.