Reasons Joseph Smith Is More Important Than Jesus [Mormon Merry Smithmas!]

Mormon Christmas Spirit - Families can be together forever

Too bad this is NOT true.Your 'church' SPLITS families into those who have TEMPLE RECOMMENDS and those who don't.

They will NOT be 'together forever'; will they Sandy??

Do YOU have a TR?

Does all of your FAMILY have one?

What's that smell?

COFFEE?

PS: I do so enjoy this conversation, hope you don't mind all my queries.

We LIVE for questions!!

And we Flying Inmen will actually ANSWER them, rather than send you off on a quest for the Holy Grail on your own. (Gosh I miss ol' PD!)

Yes; we've been incorrect occasionally, but we then accept the correction and toss out the bad for the good.

I wish I had been into these threads to see that.

Most of the threads are still around.

Some got LOCKED when the participants misbehaved;
A few got PULLED because they REALLY misbehaved,
And others were yanked by their original posters because they wandered off in a direction that they didn't like. (Free speech for ME; but not for THEE)

Missy, you'll get your two bikers all right!

Smith's people never turned on him at the end, either.

A lot sure did in the middle!

Yep, but came running back time and again. Let's not forget poor Sidney Rigdon, trying his best to inherit the mantle and exiled in Pittsburgh ignominiously.

And aren't these man-made orders simply set-apart sanctuaries and outposts for ministry and spiritual growth, with a thematic “rule” governing each one?

Not really. They are set up to focus on one particular aspect of the Faith - but they are required to be wholly compliant with the Faith.

Some are monastic, some mendicant, some teaching, but again, they are fully and wholly Catholic. Or else, like the nuns in Quebec who were excommunicated last year for Mariolatry, they are gone.

Yes indeed! I was busy with another project early on.

Best coffee in southern Utah!

bookmark

pathological liar placemarker

I really enjoy the great insights I hear from the Flying Inmans. Two gems in this thread:

From Reaganaut:

Mormons want the LDS church to be ‘true’ more than they want to know the truth...

I have always found it frustrating to try and carry on a logical discussion with Mormons and now I know why. You gave me a real "A-ha" moment this morning. I might need to re-assess my apologetics' approach.

From Colofornian:

The Catholic umbrella material on the various orders of the RCC is great. I plan on saving it and making use of it. It shows that sectarianism is present in the RCC just like in Protestant churches. Not as plainly visible but there nonetheless.

And they all still stay true to the doctrine of the Church.

And they all still stay true to the doctrine of the Church.

Let's be charitable and apply doctrinal applications both ways:

Let's say, for a moment, that all of these orders have stayed true to Biblical doctrine...with each having their own doctrinal and devotional and service emphasis.

Well, that's the Protestant groups: They, too remain true to Biblical doctrine...with each having their own doctrinal and devotional and service emphasis.

I’ll bet you’ve got the gallery & studio looking quite festive!

Miniature Danish Christmas tree in the cabin.

Looking down in the cabin from the loft.

Tree in the gallery.

Funny thing is we'll be in North Carolina for Christmas.

Best coffee in southern Utah!

- - - -
And the rest of the country as well! Thx Binger!

Now I am off to make another pot of that delicious coffee...

I just had a couple of cups with, dare I say it, Christian Brothers Brandy this afternoon. And now I’m thinking about a touch of vodka with OJ. I know it’s against Section ??? Can’t remember. I’ll try to be be good.

God knows alcohol sometimes works.

Meh, who cares what the D&C says, right?

Thanks for the chart. The authenticity of a church is not based upon formal transference of office, but manifest faith which corresponds to Scripture, which itself was established as Divine due to its supernatural qualities and effects and attestation and progressive self-conflation.

Thus the Christian faith was a rebellion against those who sat in the seat of Moses, which had a legitimate position but not assured perpetual infallibility, out of which both Rome and Mormonism operate out of, and self-define themselves as uniquely being the OTC.

The faith that Christianity replaced was one which depended upon conflation with the then-established Scriptures (which were est. as being divine without an assuredly infallible magisterium) and the manner of supernatural attestation it reveals Truth being given in relation to its claims. And thus Scripture became the standard for obedience and for testing truth claims. (http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Bible/2Tim_3.html#Partial)

As regards unity you may want to see: http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/search/label/Blueprint%20For%20Anarchy

http://contra-gentes.blogspot.com/2008/04/doctrinal-chaos-argument-one-of.html

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2009/12/special-pleading-of-sola-ecclesia-ists.html

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2010/05/patrick-madrid-is-evil.html

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/07/vicious-circle.html

http://www.the-pope.com/wvat2tec.html

As regards hindering Bible reading: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Ancients_on_Scripture.html#Supplementary

I have a thing with formatting, and so here is your post formatted with paragraphs breaks which the site http://emmahalesmith.com/getperson.php?personID=I19786&tree=00 did not all provide.

Isaac Hale, in his retirement years when Joseph came on the scene, felt ambivalent about Joseph Smith's stories and the work with the plates. During the summer of 1830 he flirted with belief, but finally, with support of Lewis and other family and community members turned against Smith. After Joseph and Emma left Harmony to escape increasing persecution, there is no evidence of further communication between the Smith's and Hale's, although Joseph apparently suspected disloyalty on Emma's part in favor of her family's opinions on a few occasions. Aside from Emma, one Isaac Hale grandson (Lorenzo Wasson) joined the Church. Among Emma's brothers, Reuben Hale gave some help to Joseph, but later said that Joseph's claims were bogus. David Hale claimed that Reuben helped Joseph fabricate characters supposedly from the plates (reference to the Anthon Transcript?) Alva Hale assisted Joseph and Emma to make the four-day 128 mile journey from Manchester to Harmony in 1827 and evidently was kindly disposed to the Smith's during their stay in Harmony. [Susan Easton Black, "Isaac Hale, antagonist of Joseph Smith," in Regional Studies in Church History - New York, (BYU Religious Studies, 1992), 93-108; Richard Lloyd Anderson, RBBM 3 (1991), 78; Larry C. Porter, "Reverend George Lane--Good 'Gifts,' Much 'Grace,' and Marked 'Usefulness'," BYUS 9 no. 3, 331-332.]

Affidavit of Isaac Hale, father-in-law of Joseph Smith, Jr., given at Harmony Township, Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania on 20 March 1834

Source: "Mormonism," Susquehanna Register, and Northern Pennsylvanian 9 (1 May 1834):1, Montrose, Pennsylvania, emphasis omitted. Paragraphs are shortened for easier reading.

I first became acquainted with Joseph Smith, Jr. in November, 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called "money-diggers;" and his occupation was that of seeing, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure. His appearance at this time, was that of a careless young man - not very well educated, and very saucy and insolent to his father.

Smith, and his father, with several other 'money-diggers' boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards, many years since. Young Smith gave the 'money-diggers' great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found - he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see. They then became discourged, and soon after dispersed. This took place about the 17th of November, 1825; and one of the company gave me his note for $12[.]68 for his board, which is still unpaid.

After these occurrences, young Smith made several visits at my house, and at length asked my consent to his marrying my daughter Emma. This I refused, and gave him my reasons for so doing; some of which were, that he was a stranger, and followed a business that I could not approve; he then left the place. Not long after this, he returned, and while I was absent from home, carried off my daughter, into the state of New York, where they were married without my approbation or consent.

After they had arrived at Palmyra [Manchester] N.Y., Emma wrote to me inquiring whether she could have her property, consisting of clothing, furniture, cows, &c. I replied that her property was safe, and at her disposal. In short time they returned, bringing with them a Peter Ingersol[l], and subsequently came to the conclusion that they would move out, and resided upon a place near my residence.

Smith stated to me, that he had given up what he called "glass-looking," and that he expected to work hard for a living, and was willing to do so. He also made arrangements with my son Alva Hale, to go to Palmyra, and move his (Smith's) furniture &c. to this place. He then returned to Palmyra, and soon after, Alva, agreeable to the arrangement, went up and returned with Smith and his family.

Soon after this, I was informed they had brought a wonderful book of Plates down with them. I was shown a box in which it is said they were contained, which had, to all appearances, been used as a glass box of the common sized window-glass. I was allowed to feel the weight of the box, and they gave me to understand, that the book of plates was then in the box - into which, however, I was not allowed to look.

I inquired of Joseph Smith Jr., who was to be the first who would be allowed to see the Book of Plates? He said it was a young child. After this, I became dissatisfied, and informed him that if there was any thing in my house of that description, which I could not be allowed to see, he must take it away; if he did not, I was determined to see it. After that, the Plates were said to be hid in the woods.

About this time, Martin Harris made his appearance upon the stage; and Smith began to interpret the characters or hieroglyphics which he said were engraven upon the plates, while Harris wrote down the interpretation. It was said, that Harris wrote down one hundred and sixteen pages, and lost them.

Soon after this happened, Martin Harris informed me that he must have a greater witness, and said that he had talked with Joseph about it - Joseph informed him that he could not, or durst not show him the plates, but that he (Joseph) would go into the woods where the Book of Plates was, and that after he came back, Harris should follow his track in the snow, and find the Book, and examine it for himself. Harris informed me afterwards, that he followed Smith's directions, and could not find the Plates, and was still dissatisfied.

The next day after this happened, I went to the house where Joseph Smith Jr., lived, and where he and Harris were engaged in their translation of the Book. Each of them had a written piece of paper which they were comparing, and some of the words were "my servant seeketh a greater witness, but no greater witness can be given him." There was also something said about "three that were to see the thing" - meaning I supposed, the Book of Plates, and that "if the three did not go exactly according to orders, the thing would be taken from them." I enquired whose words they were, and was informed by Joseph or Emma, (I rather think it was the former) that they were the words of Jesus Christ. I told them then, that I considered the whole of it a delusion, and advised them to abandon it.

The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time in the woods!

After this, Martin Harris went away, and Oliver Cowd[e]ry came and wrote for Smith, while he interpreted as above described. This is the same Oliver Cowd[e]ry, whose name may be found in the Book of Mormon. Cowd[e]ry continued a scribe for Smith until the Book of Mormon was completed as I supposed, and understood.

Joseph Smith Jr. resided near me for some time after this, and I had a good opportunity of becoming acquainted with him, and somewhat acquainted with his associates, and I conscientiously believe from the facts I have detailed, and from many other circumstances, which I do not deem it necessary to relate, that the whole "Book of Mormon" (so called) is a silly fabrication of falsehood and wickedness, got up for speculation, and with a design to dupe the credulous and unwary - and in order that its fabricators might live upon the spoils of those who swallowed the deception.

ISAAC HALE.

Affirmed to and subscribed before me, March 20th, 1834.

CHARLES DIMON, J[ustice]. [of the] Peace.