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To: Iscool
Yes it does which is surprising to hear coming from a Catholic...It means 'age'...The church age...The time of the church...The times of the Gentiles...

WHO is/are the Gentiles? Paul says those in Christ are neither 'spiritually' speaking neither Jew nor Gentile. Paul spends a great deal of writing explaining that IN Christ all are part of the family of God. So this 'Times of the Gentiles' by necessity is speaking to something specific.... might look around this globe and note how 'few' are believers in Christ????

We are also 'forewarned' about 'Jacob's trouble' which seemingly runs parallel to the 'Times of the Gentiles'? Right?

Tribulation????

Might check out that word 'world' as to its usage and why Paul and even Christ use that word over and over again with the phrase 'before the foundation', as in Ephesians 1:4. The theory of the 'church' being the point of the usage will not fit with the meaning of the literal meaning of the word 'world'.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Paul establishes that he knows the 7 trumps of Revelation in ICorinthians when he said at the 'last' trump ALL flesh would be changed. So it is NO surprise that he would refer to that very same trump in Thessalonians. But it is Peter's words that tell us in IPeter 3 and 4 what Christ did while in the tomb. Salvation was offered to all born since the days of Noah,up to the Crucifixion, and they most certainly were dead first. So there is no surprise that the dead in the flesh would 'rise' first.

AND that is the subject of IThessalonians chapter 4 as noted in verse 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow NOT, even as others which have no hope....

Only the complete disregard of the clear and simple subject Paul plainly states get to 'church' age or the security blanket of rapture.

Christians...Only Christians...The dead who are not in Christ will not be raised... 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Christians...Only Christians...Only those who are alive who are Christians will be raised...All other live people will stay here...

I realize that is what some doctrine claim, but we are told by the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, that all return to the Maker that sent us through this flesh age and those that overcome are separated from the non-believers at least until the close of this 'flesh' age.

And where will we go??? Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. That's the church right there...Getting married...Right smack in the middle of the plagues taking place on earth during the Tribulation...

Actually there are 'two' tribulations, the first takes place before Christ returns at the end of the flesh age. That means that every soul created has fulfilled what Christ told Nicodemus was required to 'see' the kingdom of God. Now Christ did not tell Nicodemus that ALL would enter the kingdom of God, only that as Christ passed through this flesh age born of woman, so would all that would be allowed to see the kingdom of God. Now as it is Written flesh cannot 'see' the Heavenly Father, only in the 'spirit' body. And the final judgment fire of perdition has not yet been 'created' to dispose of those that do not love the Heavenly Father.

Read the entire chapter...Even then, maybe you won't get it because it is spiritually discerned but it's all right there... Christians, along with their bodies and the bodies of the Christians who have died are raised to heaven...Jesus does not come to the Earth...No one sees Jesus, not even Christians (until we are in his presence)... And of course there will be live people here during the Tribulation...Live, hungry people... Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. And if you don't worship the beast, you won't eat...You won't buy gas for your car...You won't ride a bus...

Revelation states without question there are 7 trumps. The last trump of the trumpet is number 7. Just as there are 7 'churches', surely that does not mean there are 7 church 'ages'? And John that wrote down the words of Revelation was taken in 'spirit' to the LORD's day as to what things will look like on that 'day'. And on that Lord's day there are still 7 churches defined by their various doctrines. One could say John writes down what the 'tribulation' is and it is not until near the end of the book the wedding takes place. Peter says that 'one' day with the LORD is as a thousand years, so that is going to be a long engagement from the 'first' day of the day of the Lord until the wedding.

The deception is NOT having sealed in the mind which 'Jesus' shows up first. Even Paul says that it will not be until the last trump (7th) that the 'real' LORD and Savior returns and upon HIS return ALL flesh will be changed. So if the inhabitants on this earth are still walking around in flesh needing bread and water the 'real' Saviour has not returned

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So is this Paul's doctrine or was he inspired by the Heavenly Father to pen these words?

The scripture doesn't say the 'last trumpet'...It says the last trump of a trumpet...And it won't be one of the 7 trumpets blasting during the Tribulation...

The only way to get to this is to pull a Bill Clinton and compartmentalize the WORD as IF the Heavenly Father was clueless as to what He was going to have John spend so much time writing down about 1 through 7 trumps.

The context of the entire chapter deals with Christians...Those in Christ...When these people are raised, there will be plenty of live, non-Christians roaming the streets...And the cemeteries will be full of dead non-Christians...

Way back in Ecclesiastes Solomon was directed to write the purpose of flesh and he writes in chapter 12 the flesh will return to dust and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it. Christ even asked Nicodemus a master of Israel in John 3 why he did not know about this. It is not a new instruction that the flesh body purpose is limited for this particular heaven/earth age as Peter takes great pains to explain in IIPeter 3... and Peter even says the prophets knew as well.

Christ Himself said the first sign of His return was mass deception, by those coming/claiming in and of His Name.

But Jesus said real Christians will not be deceived...Only those who think they are Christians and are not...That's why Jesus gave this command:

Ah actually Christ said Matthew 24:22 (right after He quoted Daniel 12:1) And except those days (of Daniel) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days (of Daniel) shall be shortened. and

verse 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders;

insomuch that, IF it were possible, they shall deceived the very elect.

NOT one word about starvation/famine for flesh food here, but instead a warning of a religious revival to deceived IF possible the very elect. Why now wouldn't the very elect be Christians? So Christians would still have to be right here on this earth IF they are going to be tempted by a religious revival.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. There is not a (YOU) search the scriptures in the original...It's a command to search the scriptures...Do not listen to your church...Search God's word for yourself... But anyway, there will not be any Christians following the wrong Christ in the Rapture...It won't be a bus pulling up with someone saying, 'all aboard'... We won't have any choice but to go...I may be sitting in the bathtub at the time...When Jesus says, 'come up hither', I'm outta here with a head full of shampoo...

Who then is going to be here to stand against the fiery darts of the devil that Paul says we are to wearing the whole armour of God? By the way this 'beast' is none other than the 'devil' tossed down to this earth (Revelation 12:12 for those who have no clue who the antiChrist is) being allowed to tempt us just as he tempted Christ as described in the beginning of Christ's ministry.

575 posted on 12/04/2011 3:04:19 AM PST by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: Just mythoughts
Paul establishes that he knows the 7 trumps of Revelation in ICorinthians when he said at the 'last' trump ALL flesh would be changed.

Paul did not say last trumpet...You can't change scripture to line up with your theology...Then it becomes your theology, not God's...

Salvation was offered to all born since the days of Noah,up to the Crucifixion, and they most certainly were dead first. So there is no surprise that the dead in the flesh would 'rise' first.

Christians have overcome already...We don't wait to the end of the age to find out...

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Actually there are 'two' tribulations, the first takes place before Christ returns at the end of the flesh age. That means that every soul created has fulfilled what Christ told Nicodemus was required to 'see' the kingdom of God. Now Christ did not tell Nicodemus that ALL would enter the kingdom of God, only that as Christ passed through this flesh age born of woman, so would all that would be allowed to see the kingdom of God. Now as it is Written flesh cannot 'see' the Heavenly Father, only in the 'spirit' body. And the final judgment fire of perdition has not yet been 'created' to dispose of those that do not love the Heavenly Father.

Not without scripture, you don't...

Revelation states without question there are 7 trumps.

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

That puts to rest your theory of one trumpet and 7 trumps of the one trumpet...

The last trump of the trumpet is number 7. Just as there are 7 'churches', surely that does not mean there are 7 church 'ages'? And John that wrote down the words of Revelation was taken in 'spirit' to the LORD's day as to what things will look like on that 'day'. And on that Lord's day there are still 7 churches defined by their various doctrines.

You can't just make this stuff up and expect bible believers to go along with your fantasy...

John was taken ahead to the Lord's Day...The Great Tribulation...And then what??? What did John see???

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, Rev. 1-3

John is standing there in the Tribulation and is told to write which he has seen in the past, ie., the church age... and the things which are, Rev. 4-19

And then John is told to write the things which are, right now...And againg, John is standing in the Tribulation...

and the things which shall be hereafter; Rev. 19-22

John is then told to tell of the events after the Great Tribulation...

Peter says that 'one' day with the LORD is as a thousand years, so that is going to be a long engagement from the 'first' day of the day of the Lord until the wedding.

Actually, the wedding takes place near the front of the 'day', thousand years...

Here's the major portion of that thousand year period...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There's the seventh day, the one thousand year reign of Jesus on Earth...

The deception is NOT having sealed in the mind which 'Jesus' shows up first. Even Paul says that it will not be until the last trump (7th) that the 'real' LORD and Savior returns and upon HIS return ALL flesh will be changed. So if the inhabitants on this earth are still walking around in flesh needing bread and water the 'real' Saviour has not returnedAgain, it is talking about Christians...Christians only...

Again...
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

verse 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders;
insomuch that, IF it were possible, they shall deceived the very elect.

It doesn't say it is possible...It says if it were possible...But it is not possible...

NOT one word about starvation/famine for flesh food here, but instead a warning of a religious revival to deceived IF possible the very elect. Why now wouldn't the very elect be Christians? So Christians would still have to be right here on this earth IF they are going to be tempted by a religious revival.

But the Christians won't be deceived...Jesus is pointing out that the evidence will be so strong, that unless you are a Christian you will be deceived...

Who then is going to be here to stand against the fiery darts of the devil that Paul says we are to wearing the whole armour of God? By the way this 'beast' is none other than the 'devil' tossed down to this earth (Revelation 12:12 for those who have no clue who the antiChrist is) being allowed to tempt us just as he tempted Christ as described in the beginning of Christ's ministry.

Apparently, you don't believe as well that the anti Christ is here now...Tempting us as we speak...

578 posted on 12/04/2011 5:54:28 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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