Y'all's Bible mangling position is just welll . . .
Posted on 11/26/2011 3:33:54 PM PST by Iggles Phan
My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.
That's correct.
In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."
... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.
Are you confused?
Is this Jesus Christ or Antichrist?
1. The Historic View.
This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.
1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:
"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."
It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.
2. The Modernist View (Dispensational).
In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:
"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."
The difference couldn't be farther apart.
Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.
Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.
Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.
In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.
My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!
For the Glory of Christ Jesus. Amen.
I respect your right to interpret this as you think best, but I’m not convinced of your interpretation....I’ll just have faith that my belief that he is indeed the son and gave himself for our sins will get me through. In the meantime I’ll keep plodding through scripture for further understanding.
Welcome aboard, Iggles Phan.
Ain’t this religion forum great? Mocking, put downs, no real discussion, so-called theologians . . .
Thanks for your posts I have enjoyed them.
I'm sorry, but is there some kind of time limit you have to pass first? I've never heard of it.
The prayer spoken in John 17:15 occurred before the Cross.
Nothing reverses what happened at the Cross. The Cross was Judgment of all sin. That is complete.
Nothing prevents Christ from catching up His Bride in the air when the time is determined by the Father.
This will occur regardless if some believers understand this doctrine or reject it.
If you wish to identify yourself with Israel and her blessings, then you may want to study her cursings because those would also follow those identifiable with Israel.
A believer in fellowship with Christ today has the opportunity to escape those cursings by remaining in fellowship with Him and bearing our own cross to receive proper rewards at the bema seat.
“Look at the location of the word “not” in the verse.”
Answer:
The location of the word ‘not’ in the verse changes nothing.
A simple reading of this verse is that Jesus prayed that believers would not be taken out of the world. Leave it up to the Dispensational view to twist it to mean the very opposite.
Moreover and again, Philip and Paul were both HARPOZA’d (the word used for ‘rapture’) in the first century and both finished their missions on terra-firma earth.
That’s proof positive from the Scriptures itself. No rapture. No escape.
Your arguments are unconvincing.
You seem terrified at the prospect that the 70th Week is about Jesus Christ, instead of Antichrist. Perhaps inside you know the Truth but are unable to admit it.
My advice is to repent of your Dispensational sin.
“I think Revelation is rather clear on that score.
WRATH is at least
THE LAST 3.5 YEARS OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION.”
Answer:
Daniel 9 says nothing about ‘the Tribulation’.
The 70th Week stands with the other 69 as these weeks are all about the Messiah (Jesus).
One must wonder why you avoid the basic question raised at the top of this thread:
Why do Dispensationalists REVERSE the Person of the 70th Week, Jesus Christ (at the Cross), to a (future-to-us) Devil?
This is the question that must be confronted.
All of this ‘3-1/2 year’ business versus a ‘pre’ and ‘post’ this or that, is an obvious camouflage to hide the fact that no Dispensationalist, anywhere, has a good answer for this astonishing reversal.
They run from it as far as they can hide.
“Nowhere have I referenced the Talmud.”
Answer:
You referenced Rashi as an ‘authority’ that upholds your ‘rapture’ view.
Rashi was a Talmudic commentator. This is indisputable.
Are you now ditching the Talmud?
Then, since Rashi held to the Talmud, is he no longer authoritative?
Yes indeed, Apollo.
I would highly recommend the Philip Mauro archives, particularly his:
The Hope of Israel
and
The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation.
You can download at:
http://www.stilltruth.com/blog/joekreif/philip-mauro-collection-pbb-format
Philip Mauro was a contemporary of Cyrus I Scofield and initially converted to the Dispensational scheme. But, shortly after seeing what effect it was having on Christian Churches (e.g. escapism and defeatism) he started to question this belief system.
He then found himself discovering some of the very radical ideas that Darby and Scofield introduced. He became convinced that this was a malicious attack on the Scriptures and spent his remaining years refuting this pernicious doctrine.
Philip Mauro is perhaps the most underrated Theologian in American history. He should be read more as his insights are precise and brilliant.
“Typical REPLACEMENTARIAN ‘loftiness of conviction.’”
Answer:
Who holds to the real Replacement Theology here?
It is Dispensational Theology that REPLACES Jesus Christ for Antichrist in the 70th Week !!!
I think you unsuspectingly commented on your own loftiness here.
“I believe you are correct. The 69th week ended and the 70th week began when Jesus was baptised in Jordan by John.”
Answer:
Indeed. That would give 3-1/2 years between the Baptism at the Jordan and the Cross.
Moreover, Philip went down to Samaria (Acts 8). This was after the stoning of Stephen, about 3-1/2 years after the Cross.
The Gospel was no longer confined to Judea or the Holy people.
So, God’s timeline works perfectly.
No worries.
When you are a Philadelpia Phan, you know how to take it, and you know how to dish it out.
Boy, does that town know how to torture its phans or what?
Y'all's Bible mangling position is just welll . . .
One needs to start with verse 25.
New International Version (©1984)
"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler--the Anointed One--comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Learn, then, and understand that from the time the command is given to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed prince comes, seven sets of seven time periods and sixty-two sets of seven time periods will pass. Jerusalem will be restored and rebuilt with a city square and a moat during the troubles of those times.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.
American King James Version
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
American Standard Version
Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
Bible in Basic English
Have then the certain knowledge that from the going out of the word for the building again of Jerusalem till the coming of a prince, on whom the holy oil has been put, will be seven weeks: in sixty-two weeks its building will be complete, with square and earthwork.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Know thou therefore, and take notice: that from the going forth of the word, to build up Jerusalem again, unto Christ the prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and the street shall be built again, and the walls in straitness of times.
Darby Bible Translation
Know therefore and understand: From the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah, the Prince, are seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. The street and the moat shall be built again, even in troublous times.
English Revised Version
Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks: and threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
Webster's Bible Translation
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
World English Bible
Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times.
Young's Literal Translation
And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
New International Version (©1984)
After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
But after the sixty-two sets of seven time periods, the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing. The city and the holy place will be destroyed with the prince who is to come. His end will come with a flood until the end of the destructive war that has been determined.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
American King James Version
And after three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined.
American Standard Version
And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
Bible in Basic English
And at the end of the times, even after the sixty-two weeks, one on whom the holy oil has been put will be cut off and have no ...; and the town and the holy place will be made waste together with a prince; and the end will come with an overflowing of waters, and even to the end there will be war; the making waste which has been fixed.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. And a people with their leader that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation.
Darby Bible Translation
And after the sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with an overflow, and unto the end, war, the desolations determined.
English Revised Version
And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and his end shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
Webster's Bible Translation
And after sixty and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined.
World English Bible
After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One shall be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
Young's Literal Translation
And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.
.
AND IT WAS SO. Christ was 'cut off' on The Cross. His rule as conquering King will be the next mode of His coming . . . appearing to not have accomplished anything--killed on The Cross as suffering servant the first time.
.
PERHAPS y'all's language skills are not that alert.
To know who the ruler is that verse 27 is speaking of, one has to pay close attention to the language in verse 26.
. . .and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and his end shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
NLT:
. . . [END OF THAT THOUGHT AND TOPIC BUT THE COMPLEX SENTENCE CONTINUES]: and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.
THAT RULER IS CLEARLY the Anti-Christ of Daniel and of Revelation.
Pretending that it is CHRIST THE REDEEMER who destroys the city and the Temple is utterly untrue to the language and utterly untrue to Christ's purposes and character and utterly untrue to simple logic.
It still boggles my mind the unmitigated nonsense REPLACEMENTARIANS hostile to God's Word and purposes regarding Israel can come up with. Sometimes it's embarrassing that they go by the label "Christians."
Welcome to FR.
Signed up yesterday and posted this today?
Ummmm, about this thread.....
IBTZ
>> “In fact, John is given a measuring rod and asked to measure the temple itself. That implies that he was to measure the existing temple in Jerusalem in his day, not one future to us.” <<
.
Impossible! - At the time John wrote the Revelation, the temple had been gone for 20 years.
Anyhow opinions vary I think. And in any case it does not have an effect on my salvation. That is secure in Jesus Christ.
Far tooooo true, imho.
Sad. Very sad.
REPLACEMENTARIANISM is a gross hideousness from hell.
And in example after example, what they do with fairly straightforward Scriptures is embarrassing—for them—i.e. I keep wanting to find a blanket to back up toward them with to cover their intellectual nakedness and obtuse lack of logic and simple understanding.
They are right about a couple of things though
They will not be removed in the rapture and they will be judged by their works.
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