Posted on 11/23/2011 11:11:08 AM PST by marshmallow
A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.
Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.
You seem to like St. Justin Martyrs treatise. Except for the Eucharist part.
Transubstantiation is one means of explaining the Real Presence correctly in Aristotelean terms. It’s not the only way, nor even necessary. Someone could develop another syllogism or argument concerning it tomorrow and it would not affect the faith. What is important is the correct belief in the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist.
As C.S. Lewis put it: Christ said: “Take, eat.” not “Take, understand.”
So when or how transubstantiation is taught is irrelevant so long as the fundamental belief is there. As St. Justin put it:
“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.”
As the Church has always taught and believed and as you saw through St. Justin Martyr’s eyes.
I specifically told one poster that the crowd was not the point of the Olsteen picture.
Then you brought up the crowd and size of congregations, quickly avoiding the topic when your own congregation was included.
Since your post said the Vatican “could only wish” for this size, I posted a large crowd with the Pope under the heading FWIW. This was in response to your crowd/congregation size discussion, not mine.
Size was not my point or discussion and I did not bring it up here except in response to you and others who did.
That would be untrue according to the Greek Lexicon.
Presbyteros
1. elder, of age,
a. the elder of two people
b. advanced in life, an elder, a senior
1. forefathers
2. a term of rank or office
a. among the Jews
1. members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
2. of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
b. among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches)
c. The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
d. the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God
Which brings up the fact that priests of the CC are not even qualified by Biblical standards.
What is being depicted in this fresco?
Which begs the question. What about the Magisterium? A group of human beings. Who cannot step outside their body of flesh to make infallible doctrine. Just how does that work?
It’s transubstantiation I think. Of course that's a fallible opinion I'm pretty sure.
What's that saying? "Ya can't take it with ya.". Tell me, what is the difference between someone a like Warren Buffett who lives in stunning splendor with lavish homes, vacation villas, surrounded with priceless artwork and jewels, private jets, designer clothing of the finest fabrics, the finest cars, multitudes of yachts available on request, private chefs, sumptuous foods to his pleasing, private gardens, maids to make his bed, clean his toilets, scrub the floors, launder his clothing, valets to assist in his dressing, meetings with the worlds dignitaries all vieing to impress him, millions gathering to hear his every word ready to give their own lives to protect his...wait...the last few couldn't even apply to Buffett. No, the Pope, like those before him, lives as emperors, kings and potentates would. So what does it matter that he has no personal wealth - he has no children to inherit from him - as long as he lives as no other man could ever dream of living?
The point, of course, is that Jesus and his Apostles did not even desire to live this way but gave up all for the cause of the Gospel. I don't think it's incorrect for people to question why such "men of God" need to live so diametrically opposed to the standard Jesus set.
Which is important to remember when reading your pronouncements on the Church.
What about the Magisterium?
If you sincerely wish to learn, then study the Church, its history goes all the way back.
If you don't sincerely wish to learn, then nevermind.
Oh, yeah. I thought transubstantiation was the turning of wine into blood, THAT DOESN’T EXIST. Pre-Crucifixion blood, I guess. Which makes one who partakes pre-crucifixion saved...which is impossible...Oh, let me off the merry go round of Catholic “logic”.
Which is why it is absolutely necessary to check anything I or any person says against what God’s Word of Truth says. The Bible. If I say something regarding your church beliefs, check it by what God says in His Word. I never claimed to be infallible. I claimed God’s Word of Truth is infallible. And why IT is the final authority.
What is being depicted in this fresco?
" We have a good example of the painting of the Eucharist, the fractio panis, in the catacombs of Priscilla which duly reminds us of the important rite celebrated in all the tituli, in the various domus ecclesiae, such as those which existed here in Trastevere (tituli of Cecilia, Chrysogonus and Callixtus). The Breaking of Bread was not just the opening gesture of the agape as such, but was surrounded by a complex liturgy: there were psalms, readings from the prophets, homily of the celebrant, etc."
--THE "BREAKING OF BREAD" (FRACTIO PANIS)
The following from THE SPIRITUALITY OF THE CATACOMBS also helps explain the art:
The Eucharistic triptych is the very jewel of these family tombs. In the central painting are represented seven persons sitting round a table. Their number reminds us of the disciples who gathered round Jesus on the shores of the lake. On the dishes in front of them is placed the fish: Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour.Close by, on the left, a priest places his hands on a small table with a loaf and a fish on it, a clear symbol of the consecration which is reserved to the ministers. Standing on the other side, an orante with open arms, reminds us that to reach heaven we must feed on that consecrated bread (the Eucharist).
In the space next to this last picture is a painting of the sacrifice of Abraham and Isaac, a symbol of the sacrifice of the cross in relation to the Eucharist. "
From the same source: "The spirituality of the catacombs is the same as that of the primitive Church." The liturgy we have today goes back to and is continuous with that of the catacombs.
I think everyone who is interested in the early Church would find the study of the catacombs of Rome quite interesting and informative.
thanks again...
OOOO, ooooo, me, me!
In your case it's you doing the checking. In every other case it's each individual doing the checking.
And why IT is the final authority.
Sorry, but the checker, each person in your system, is the final authority. That's why you have such offshoots going down such different roads using sola scriptura as their guide with each person authority on where the guide points. It just doesn't work, not for One faith, One Church anyway.
It's just woefully unworkable and impractical; which is why, IMHO, Jesus didn't establish His Church with this framework.
Unfortunately, these threads are never complete without the resident UFOlogist and his cartoons and multi-colored insults.
The one saving grace is his style does make it easier to just scroll on by quickly.
Or may consubstantiation...or maybe a blending of the two. Maybe they just go out of their minds for a moment and then come back?
Hoss
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