Gay Episcopal Bishop to Preach at San Francisco Catholic Parish

Catholic Culture ^ | 11/22/11

[marshmallow]

A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.

Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.

[D-fendr]

Again, I sincerely appreciate you avoiding answering rather than just making up a number. In this instance, not answering the question at all is the more honest response.

I’m expressing my respect for your choice here.

[RnMomof7]

Absolutely. I'll match your banned website snippets and false factoids with the writings of the Church Fathers any day. As I already pointed out to you in post #748 the initial construct of the modern Catholic Liturgy was documented in the early 1st century in the Didache and more extensively documented in the writings of St. Clement of Rome in the late 1st century. St. Justin Martyr tells us that the basic structure of the Mass was already in place by the year 150.

Saint Justin Martyr (died c. 165), in chapter 67 of his First Apology [2]:

On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

NO script..no canned responses, no priest, no altar... This sounds more like my church than yours

[smvoice]

Only if I have a future shot at being part of the Netisterium. I would like to sit at a big round table and roll the dice to see what is new doctrine and what doesn’t make it this time around. Also to make tofu anathema. And it be infallibly binding.

[smvoice]

It's the Big Flock mentality. The one whose flock is biggest MUST be right.

You know, just as it was in Jesus' earthly ministy. With the Little Flock. That Catholics claim are themselves. Except BIG...Jesus would have approved. After all, didn't He say there would always be a believing remnant? A ONE BILLION STRONG remnant...hmmmm

[D-fendr]

This sounds more like my church than yours

Really?

"And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."

[D-fendr]

You need to catch up. 'Twas PNSN that brought up size in this exchange, not I.

[D-fendr]

And it be infallibly binding.

You get to do that now, all the live-long-sola-scriptura-and-you day.

Or, are you doing so fallibly?

[CynicalBear]

Catholics like to brag that the CC is the largest with the most numbers. Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You would think an intelligent person would get the hint.

[CynicalBear]

You want binding? Eat cheese!

[CynicalBear]

>> and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? Matthew 15:17

[Quix]

I’m still waiting to hear the size of the congregation of the church you attend...

Ahhhhhhh

The old

size & degree of fossilization = righteousness & truth

fantasy?

.

Exodus 20:4-6 4 "You shall NOT make for yourself
a carved image,
or any likeness
of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

[RnMomof7]

There was no OFFICIAL teaching of transubstantiation until that nasty old Fourth Lateran Council (1215)

There was no official doctrine of that until that council ...looking at the church fathers one sees differing opinions on the Lords table..some in agreement with the Roman church and some with the reformers..

The Didache calls the bread and wine food and nothing more...

One more time..The NT church had no priests, no mass, no altar, ...the NT church looked more like my church than yours

[Quix]

[Natural Law]

"the president verbally instructs,..."

Greek has no word for "president". The actual word used was "Presbyteros"(πρεσβύτερος). It is synonymous with "priest" and is actually from where we derive the English word "priest".

This sounds more like my church than yours"

I doubt that unless you attend a Catholic Church and share in the Eucharistic Real Presence. Besides, haven't you boasted about not having a "church"? Here is Justin's account of the Liturgy from his First Apology of Justin, ch. 65:

"After we have thus washed the one who has believed and has assented, we lead him to where those who are called brethren are gathered, offering prayers in common and heartily for ourselves and for the one who has been illuminated, and for all others everywhere, so that we may be accounted worthy, now even that we have learned the truth, to be found keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an eternal salvation. Having concluded the prayers, we greet one another with a kiss. Then there is brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of water and of watered wine [the text followed by two other two genitive case terms indicating that both the water and watered wine are in the same cup], and taking them, he gives praise and glory to the Father of all, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; and he himself gives thanks at some length in order that these things may be deemed worthy.

When the prayers and thanksgiving are completed, all the people present call out their consent, saying 'Amen!' 'Amen' in the Hebrew language signifies 'so be it.' After the president has given thanks, and all the people have shouted their assent, those whom we call deacons give to each one present to partake of the Eucharistic bread and wine and water; and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who has been washed in the washing [baptism] which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [2 Pet 3:21], and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him [see 1 Cor 11: 23-26; Lk 22; 19] and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished is both the flesh and blood of the incarnated Jesus [see John 6: 53-56].

The apostles, in the Memoirs which they produced, which we called Gospels, have thus passed on that which was enjoined upon them: that Jesus took bread and, having given thanks, said, 'Do this in remembrance of Me; this is My Body' [Lk 22:19; Mt 26:26; Mk 14: 22: 1 Cor 11: 23-24]. And in like manner, taking the cup, and having given thanks, He said, 'This is my Blood' [Lk 22:20; Mt 26: 27-28; Mk 14:24; 1 Cor 11: 25]. And He imparted this to them only. The evil demons, however, have passed on its imitation in the mysteries of Mithra [pagan cult]. For as you know or are able to learn, bread and a cup of water together with certain incantations are used in imitation to the mystic rites."

So tell us, have you actually read all of Justin's writings and equally accept them as in the snippet you unsuccessfully to pawn of on us, or do you reserve the right to pick and choose like everything else?

[Natural Law]

"Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? Matthew 15:17"

As already suggested in other posts, until you can demonstrate an actual understanding of "substance" you should shut up about transubstantiation (at least while the grown ups are talking).

[Natural Law]

"There was no OFFICIAL teaching of transubstantiation until that nasty old Fourth Lateran Council (1215)"

Teresa, do you really believe that posting a lie will make it somehow true or will alter the actual truth? The Fourth Lateran Council accepted the term "transubstantiation", but it has been around since Jesus said "This is my body".

[RnMomof7]

Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? Matthew 15:17

They have their magic bread.. all of their faith is in that bread to somehow transform then , make them holier ....

Hbr 13:9 — Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

[CynicalBear]

Are you talking about the unbloody sacrifice where you drink blood?

[smvoice]

BWHAHAHAA!!! You’ve got a point there!