Gay Episcopal Bishop to Preach at San Francisco Catholic Parish

Catholic Culture ^ | 11/22/11

[marshmallow]

A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.

Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.

[D-fendr]

Proof texting contextual fallacies, taking one piece and expanding it into the whole ignoring the rest..

It’s always been the way of heresy and likely always will be.

[rzman21]

The fathers comment on 2 Thessalonians 2:4

A verse I know that you reject.

{2:14} And so, brothers, stand firm, and hold to the traditions that you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

And so, brothers, stand firm AMBROSIASTER In order for God’s foreknoledge to remain favorable to their salvation, Paul warns them to stand and to presevere in the traditon of the Gospel. They must take care not to grow weary through idleness or sloth and so fail to complete the work of God which they have begun. and hold to the traditions that you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle AQUINAS The Apostles, led by the inward instinct of the Holy Spirit, handed down to the churches certain instructions which they did not put in writing, but which have been ordained, in accordance with the observance of the Church as practiced by the faithful as time went on. ATHAN The very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles and preserved by the Fathers. GREG That is, by succession from the Apostles through the saints who came after them. EPIPHAN We must turn to tradition, for everything cannot be received from the divine Scriptures. That is why the holy Apostles handed down certain things in writings but others by traditions. IRENAEUS In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this way there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the Apostles until now, and handed in truth. VINCENT Here perhaps, someone may ask: Since the canon of the Scripture is complete and more than sufficient in itself, why is it necessary to add to it the authority of ecclesiastical interpretation? As a matter of fact, Holy Scripture, because of its depth, is not universally accepted in one and the same sense. The same text is interpreted different by different people, so that one may almost gain the impression that it can yield as many different meanings as there are men. Thus, because of the great distortions caused by various errors, it is, indeed, necessary that the trend of the interpretation of the prophetic and apostolic writings be directed in accordance with the rule of the ecclesiastical and Catholic meaning.

[rzman21]

Proverbs 3:34 “God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.”

[rzman21]

No hell, no jail, no legal repercussions, no restitution required.

>>Not exactly. It depends if the murderer had real contrition like the good thief on the Cross or was like the bad thief.

Read about imperfect contrition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperfect_contrition

[rzman21]

What dogma was previously anathematized by the Catholic Church as a whole ,but has since been codified?

Infallibility only rests in the Church on a universal level.

Actually, Protestants use a corrupted version of the Old Testament that they borrowed from the Jews.

Critical studies show that the Septuagint is far more accurate than the Textus Receptus used by the King James Bible.

[rzman21]

I invite you to see what the ancients had to say about the Book of Romans 1,000 years before there was such a thing as Protestantism.
http://catenas.wetpaint.com/page/Romans

[D-fendr]

Romans and Luther's translation of it provide a good example of the mold for sola scriptura:

I know very well that in Romans 3 the word solum is not in the Greek or Latin text – the papists did not have to teach me that. It is fact that the letters s-o-l-a are not there…

Please do not give these donkeys [papists] any other answer to their useless braying about the word sola than simply this: “Luther will have it so, and he says that he is a doctor above all the doctors of the pope.”
Luther's Open Letter on Translating

[2nd amendment mama]

Placemarker

[mas cerveza por favor]

So the RCC claims that all the Apostles were present at her death but not one of them wrote about it even though it is so central to beliefs of the RCC.

You theorize that the Apostles made a habit of writing down everything that happened of spiritual significance? St. John stated quite plainly that they did not write everything down.

However, the report was certainly passed along verbally and perhaps through written documents since lost. Relics of all the Apostles and martyrs were greatly sought after by early Christians for miraculous healing power and Mary's relics would have been the most highly prized of all. The unavailability of Mary's relics or records of her relics is solid evidence that her body was never buried according to the standard practice. Given that, the most likely scenario (and the historically chronicled report) was her bodily assumption into heaven. At least it is the most likely scenario for any Christian who accepts the reality of miracles.

[rzman21]

Protestants are hypocrites when they protest papal infallibility or ecclesiastical infallibility for that matter because they implicitly declare their individual infallibility when it comes to interpreting scripture.

Individual fathers or doctors may err, but a matter is only infallible if it is a matter of universal consent like the real presence, the Divinity of Christ, etc.

It’s like the difference between a soloist and an orchestra.

The soloist is fallible while the orchestra is infallible. That’s the best analogy for describing catholicity.

The individual Protestant who reads his or her Bible is like a soloist.

[D-fendr]

Particularly when the orchestra is established, protected and headed by Christ, with the Holy Spirit conducting.

:)

[HossB86]

Try reading a commentary on Romans.

Hoss

[HossB86]

That didn’t end. The Church is infallible by the power of the Holy Spirit, so if we can’t trust fallible men to act infallibly then we should think twice about trusting the claims of scripture.

How does the Roman Catholic Church do this when the Magisterium and fallible men (Popes) and fallible councils pronounce edicts and call them infallible?

Pretty big disconnect there. By your own reasoning then, the Holy Spirit, working in fallible little ol' me can guide my reading and discerning of scripture. Would not that be God using fallible me to act infallibly?

I'm not saying this -- you just did by your posting.

Hoss

[rzman21]

You aren’t in holy orders.

And besides you are both heterodox and schismatic.

[rzman21]

I have, but they don’t start with your Ockhamian presuppositions about truth.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “Protestants are hypocrites when they protest papal infallibility or ecclesiastical infallibility for that matter because they implicitly declare their individual infallibility when it comes to interpreting scripture.” <<

.
That kind of error is to be expected from a catholic, since they allow a Nicolaitan to ‘interpret’ the scriptures, but really the scriptures are designed to self-interpret, for those that allow them to do so.

[metmom]

Non-Catholics aren’t such respecters of persons, just like God isn’t.

Catholicism is the one which sets up some kind of hierarchy and special class of clergy, completely contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “The soloist is fallible while the orchestra is infallible. That’s the best analogy for describing catholicity.

The individual Protestant who reads his or her Bible is like a soloist.” <<

.
The individual protestant who reads his Bible as the Holy Spirit leads him is simply a member of the Holy Spirit’s orchestra, while all the catholics who occasionally read their Bible, are members of a nicolaitan’s orchestra, following him going solo in the dark.

[rzman21]

Spoken like a true American. You seem to view God as being akin to the Queen of England, a constitutional monarch. Scripture doesn't establish an American-style egalitarian state. Perhaps you missed my post about the power of the bishops in scripture. In 1 Timothy, St. Paul uses the term episkopos, which literally means overseer, and in Hebrews you find the term hegumenos, which means leader. Although were all part of a royal priesthood just as the Jews were, we are not all equal. You are living proof that being Biblical is in the eye of the beholder. Hebrews 13:17: Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit. Πείθεσθε τοῖς ἡγουμένοις ὑμῶν καὶ ὑπείκετε, αὐτοὶ γὰρ ἀγρυπνοῦσιν ὑπὲρ τῶν ψυχῶν ὑμῶν ὡς λόγον ἀποδώσοντες, ἵνα μετὰ χαρᾶς τοῦτο ποιῶσιν καὶ μὴ στενάζοντες, ἀλυσιτελὲς γὰρ ὑμῖν τοῦτο. http://concordances.org/greek/2233.htm http://concordances.org/greek/e_goumenois.htm http://misselbrook.org.uk/Parsing.aspx?PNum=6843 http://christianisrael.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/obey-them-that-rule-over-you/ Let's compare the Greek in 1 Timothy 3 with the Greek in St. Ignatius of Antioch's Epistle to the Church of Smyrna and the Didache. Scholarship suggests 1 Timothy was written about 62 A.D., while St. Ignatius's epistle was written about 40 years later. In Timothy 3:1 we find the Greek word ἐπισκοπῆς (episcopos), which literally means overseer or bishop in English. The same is true in 3:2 where we find the form ἐπίσκοπον. It appears again in Titus 1:7. http://biblos.com/titus/1-7.htm Anti-episcopal Protestants try dismissing the episcopacy as an innovation by fudging the words. Looking at extra-scriptural references is important because they show how this term was in common usage during this time period. In the Didache, which was written in the late 1st century, which is the earliest extra-scriptural reference to how early Christians believed and worshiped we find the following. Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord. The Greek text again uses the same word as the Bible. 1 ceirotonhsate oun eautoiv episkopouv kai diakonouv axiouv tou kuriou, andrav praeiv kai afilargurouv kai alhqeiv kai dedokimasmenouv, umin gar leitourgousi kai autoi thn leitourgian twn profhtwn kai didaskalwn. In the Epistle to the Smyrneans, episkopos reappears in the following context. See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. 1. Πάντες τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ ἀκολουθεῖτε, ὡς Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς τῷ πατρί, καὶ τῷ πρεσβυτερἰῳ ὡς τοῖς ἀποστόλοις. τοὺς δὲ διακόνους ἐντρέπεσθε ὡς θεοῦ ἐντολήν. μηδεὶς χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου τι πρασσέτω τῶν ἀνηκόντων εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν. ἐκείνη βεβαία εὐχαριστία ἡγείσθω, ἡ ὑπὸ ἐπίσοπον οὖσα ἢ ᾧ ἂν αὐτὸς ἐπιτρέψῃ. 2. ὅπου ἂν φανῇ ὁ ἐπίσκοπος, ἐκεῖ τὸ πλῆθος ἤτω, ὥσπερ ὅπου ἂν ῇ Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, ἐκεῖ ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία(Catholic Church). οὐκ ἐξόν ἐστιν χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου οὔτε βαπτίζειν οὔτε ἀγάπην ποιεῖν· ἀλλ’ ὃ ἂν ἐκεῖνος δοκιμάσῃ, τοῦτο καὶ τῷ θεῷ εὐάρεστον, ἵνα ἀσφαλὲς ᾖ καὶ βέβαιον πᾶν ὃ πράσσετε. http://www.ccel.org/l/lake/fathers/ignatius-smyrnaeans.htm Episkopos is also found in the 1 Epistle of St. Clement to the Corinthians, which was written around 95 A.D. Clement is referenced directly by St. Paul in Philippians 4:3 Philippians Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/info/1clement.html 1Clem 42:4 So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe. 1Clem 42:5 And this they did in no new fashion; for indeed it had been written concerning bishops and deacons from very ancient times; for thus saith the scripture in a certain place, I will appoint their bishops in righteousness and their deacons in faith. Chapter 42. Οι αποστολοι ημιν ευηγγελισθησαν απο του κυριου Ιησου Χριστου, Ιησους ο Χριστος απο του θεου αξεπεμφθη. ο Χριστος ουν απο του θεου,και οι αποστολοι απο του Χριστου· εγενοντο ουν αμφοτερα ευτακτως εκ θεληματος θεου. παραγγελιας ουν λαβοντες και πληροφορηθεντες δια της αναστασεως του κυριου ημων Ιησου Χριστου και πιστωθεντες εν τω λογω του θεου μετα πληροφοριας πνευματος αγιου εξηλθον, ευαγγελιζομενοι την βασιλειαν του θεου μελλειν ερχεσθαι. κατα χωρας ουν και πολεις κηρυσσοντες καθιστανον τας απαρχας αυτων, δοκιμασαντες τω πνευματι, εις επισκοπους και διακονους των μελλοντων πιστευειν. και τουτο ου καινως, εκ γαρ δη πολλων χρονων εγεγραπτο περι επισκοπων και διακονων· ουτωσ γαρ που λεγει η γραφη· Καταστησω τους επισκοπους αυτων εν δικαιοσυνη και τους διακονους αυτωνεν πιστει. 1Clem 44:1 And our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife over the name of the bishop's office. Και οι αποστολοι ημων εγνωσαν δια του κυριου ημων Ιησου Χριστου οτι ερις εσται επι του ονοματος της επισκοπης. Then we find in the rest of the Chapter that St. Clement relates that: 1Clem 44:2 For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration.

[rzman21]

If Protestantism is an orchestra, it’s one without a bandleader.