Posted on 11/23/2011 11:11:08 AM PST by marshmallow
A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.
Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.
So ????.Show me where Peter, Paul, John,Jude,Luke, Matthew or Mark believed it
>>You are arguing from silence. Kind of like when the gay theology folks say Jesus didn’t condemn homosexuality because he never talked about it in the scriptures.
We can tell. They claim uninterrupted succession from the Apostles but don’t still understand what all of what they wrote means. Give me a break.
BB, why are you worried about no mention of the assumption in the Scriptures.
the Scriptures tell us baptism is for the remission of sins, yet from prior posts, we know you reject this teaching.
so “the Scriptures” are just a fig leaf for what someone wants to believe.
worshipping the woman in the mirror.
As to being saved "by election", it would depend on how one would define the very Biblical term. You see, there is no doubt that believers ARE known by God "before the foundation of the earth". This speaks of God's foreknowledge, which is one of his divine attributes. Some read the verses speaking of this and determine that since God knows all those who will be saved BEFORE he even created them, that means God created people knowing who would receive OR reject him. Some take it further - which I don't BTW - that God "predetermines" who is saved and who is damned. They may even state that the person has no "free will" to make a choice to receive the light God shines by his grace. This is what they call "election", God elects the saved, though it is based on his own perfect will, not their merit or deserving efforts.
On the other hand, some believe in free will and that God desires that ALL be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, but he already knows those that will and those that won't. Those that God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. I read that and it means to me that God did not predestine me to BE saved, but that he predestined me - when I did receive Christ - to be conformed to his image as he also does for all others who choose to trust in Christ. How does God, who knew beforehand, allow someone to be born knowing they will spend eternity in Hell? That is something NOBODY can really get their head around. Some things as they relate to our God and Savior will NEVER be totally understood this side of heaven.
So, to answer your question, "are you saved by election", I would say I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and that made me part of "The Elect".
The RCC doesn’t have a clue.
“the RCC doesn’t have a clue”
coming from someone who said the Council of Ephesus taught the worship of diana.
LOL, talk about clueless!!
Sure she did. I saw it why didn’t you?
Matthew was written in 37AD and you say that was decades after?
So, to answer your question, "are you saved by election", I would say I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and that made me part of "The Elect".
Thank you for your answer which reflects the belief of a large portion of Christianity. On the other hand, if you believed, as a large segment of Protestantism does, the other way 'round: that you receive grace and faith only by virtue of being born elect, then you would be espousing salvation by election.
Big difference in soteriology and man and God. Very contrary doctrine, beliefs and interpretations, yet both supposedly come from the same 'ultimate authority.'
Q.E.D. my point that "if sola scriptura is based on the same authority, it cannot result in such radically different religions, or interpretations" which came from a reply challenging my previous assertion that sola scriptura is just woefully unworkable and impractical for One Faith, One Body, One Church; and, that this is why Jesus did not establish His Church on this foundation.
Thanks for your reply.
I think that many FReepers will find fault no matter what just as an excuse to remain outside the Catholic Church.
Yeah, and Bonnie and Clyde were wanted for robbing banks. That meant that they were wanted so they could start robbing banks right?
I said that’s where the practice started but you twisted that just as the CC twists scriptures to fit their doctrines so I do understand the mindset.
Oh goodness. This looks like fun. Movies!
I don't believe you. Post #1395 suggests otherwise.
you didn’t understand
Do NOT presume to read my mind. You have failed to do so correctly.
but the answer was there.
No, it was not.
Do you consider yourself to be an infallible interpreter of Scripture or an inerrant arbiter of doctrine?
You may answer "yes". You may answer "no". You may decline to answer. You may continue to emit verbal squid-ink. Your choice. I can distinguish which you are doing.
This has (again) been a fascinating experiment.
“the practice started”
what practice?
does the truth mean anything to you, or are content living in some fantasy world of imagined doctrines??
You place quite a bit of trust in this "infallible authority" don't you? But what if this Magesterium of yours doesn't address a specific point? What do you do then? In Post #932, you said:
If there were, some would criticize the Church for being too controlling. You can look at the various systematic theologies as taking pieces of truth and expanding them into one big untruth. That's how heresies are. The Church is big. It's walls are as far out as possible, allowing as much freedom as possible while remaining true to the teachings of Christ to His apostles. She did so over the centuries dealing with heresies and maintaining the universal, catholic, faith. The Church has taken the truths taught by heresies and rejected the untruth they derived from them. The Church has harmonized these truths into its teaching. Within these walls, the individual is free to let Holy Scripture mean what it means to them individually, over time. Scripture if it is Holy in the true sense, has many meanings. This freedom of interpretation is more freedom than that found in, say, Calvinism. The official commentary on the Church's Holy Scriptures is found in its councils' decisions, it's dogmas and creeds. The great majority of Christians, Catholic or not, still hold to the Church's creeds. This, we believe...
So where your Church has determined "creeds", "dogmas" and "doctrines", according to you they leave room for conjecture and freedom of conscience on areas not ruled upon, did I interpret you right?
You have complained that I fail to either read or comprehend your points. Rest assured, I do read all posts on threads I participate. In speaking about the doctrine of sola scriptura, you claim about me "your point was the differences between sola scriptura theologies were not that great", and I still hold to this but please comprehend that these "differences" are not the fault of Scripture's sufficiency, but of the one who reads them and comes to an understanding of them. On many points, Scripture DOES allow flexibility suited to the times, customs, persons, etc. But on the major tenets of the Christian faith, there is unity and if some depart from these, THEY are at fault NOT Scripture.
Tell me, has the Catholic Church made a definitive statement about the reality of dispensations? H. A. Ironside says at the link http://www.gospelhall.org/bible-teaching/ironside--wrongly-dividing-the-word-of-truth/ultra-dispensationalism--chapter-1--what-is-ultra-dispensationalism.html that dispensations:
"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (2 Tim. 2: 15).
PAUL'S exhortation to the younger preacher, Timothy, has come home to many with great power in recent years. As a result, there has been a return to more ancient methods of Bible study, which had been largely neglected during the centuries of the Church's drift from apostolic testimony. Augustine's words have had a re-affirmation: "Distinguish the ages, and the Scriptures are plain." And so there has been great emphasis put in many quarters, and rightly so, upon the study of what is commonly known as "dispensational" truth. This line of teaching, if kept within Scriptural bounds, cannot but prove a great blessing to the humble student of the Word of God who desires to know His will or plan in His dealings with men from creation to the coming glory. A careful examination of the volume of Revelation shows that God's ways with men have differed in various ages. This must be taken into account if one would properly apprehend His truth.
The word "dispensation" is found several times in the pages of our English Bible and is a translation of the Greek word "oikonomia." This word, strictly speaking, means "house order." It might be translated "administration," "order," or "stewardship." In each successive age, God gives to men of faith a certain stewardship, or makes known to them a certain order or administration, in accordance with which they are responsible to behave. A dispensation then is a period of time in which God is dealing with men in some way in which He has not dealt with them before. Only when a new revelation from God is given, does a dispensation change. Moreover, there may be degrees of revelation in one dispensation; all, however, having to do with a fuller unfolding of the will of God for that particular age. This was very definitely true in the dispensation of law, from Moses to Christ. We have the various revelations: of Sinai, both the first and second giving of the law; then added instructions during the wilderness years; the covenant with David; and the revelations given to the prophets. The circumstances in which God's people were found changed frequently during this age of law, but the dispensation itself continued from Sinai until Jesus cried, "It is finished." It is important to have this in mind, otherwise the vast scope of an ever unfolding dispensation may be lost sight of, and one might get the idea that every additional revelation of truth in a given age changed the dispensation, whereas it only enlarges it.
I think you could see that the concept of "dispensations" is hardly a new one and, as Ironside states, accepting this truth helps to rightly divide the Word of Truth. The Bible IS God's gift to us that continues to present the infallible and authoritative truths the Apostles learned from Jesus and that the Holy Spirit revealed to them afterwards. The SAME truths they taught the early church and that faithful followers continued to teach. How one was known as faithful to the truth was how close he was to the source of the truth and today we have that same assurance of that source of truth through the divinely-inspired Holy Scriptures. God enscripturated ALL that he desires we know so that we can walk in truth. How we live out that truth every day determines the success or failure we have in growing closer to our Lord and, as the Holy Spirit present within us illuminates the deeper truths of God, we can in turn continue to help others come to the knowledge of the truth.
If they join the Church, they have to give up worshiping the God(dess) in the Bathroom Mirror.
Both fascinating and enlightening, and, I think, providing a teachable moment.
Thanks..
Hardly...We stay outside the Catholic church because we are born again bible believing Christians...God condemns your religion in the scriptures...
What could the light of Jesus have in common with darkness???
Sometimes, I feel called to cut through all the rubbish. I think I’ve said all that I need to say, here. In this case, I think the silence and squid-ink from certain quarters speak more eloquently than words.
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