Posted on 11/04/2011 7:56:36 PM PDT by marshmallow
Details, from a Jewish paper in Israel:
Ultra-Orthodox young men curse and spit at Christian clergymen in the streets of Jerusalem’s Old City as a matter of routine. In most cases the clergymen ignore the attacks, but sometimes they strike back. Last week the Jerusalem Magistrate’s Court quashed the indictment against an Armenian priesthood student who had punched the man who spat at him.
Johannes Martarsian was walking in the Old City in May 2008 when an young ultra-Orthodox Jew spat at him. Maratersian punched the spitter in the face, making him bleed, and was charged for assault. But Judge Dov Pollock, who unexpectedly annulled the indictment, wrote in his verdict that “putting the defendant on trial for a single blow at a man who spat at his face, after suffering the degradation of being spat on for years while walking around in his church robes is a fundamental contravention of the principles of justice and decency.”
“Needless to say, spitting toward the defendant when he was wearing the robe is a criminal offense,” the judge said.
When Narek Garabedian came to Israel to study in the Armenian Seminary in Jerusalem half a year ago, he did not expect the insults, curses and spitting he would be subjected to daily by ultra-Orthodox Jews in the streets of the Old City.
“When I see an ultra-Orthodox man coming toward me in the street, I always ask myself if he will spit at me,” says Narek, a Canadian Armenian, this week. About a month ago, on his way to buy groceries in the Old City, two ultra-Orthodox men spat at him. The spittle did not fall at his feet but on his person. Narek, a former football player, decided this time not to turn the other.....
(Excerpt) Read more at patheos.com ...
::Sigh:: It's almost impossible to argue against an anecdote. Unfortunately, that doesn't prevent the anecdote, even if untrue, from poisoning people's minds.
The three ritual components of a Halakhic coversion are 1)circumcision (which doesn't apply to females), 2)immersing in a miqvah, and 3)bringing a qorban to the Temple in Jerusalem (not possible at this time). I have never heard of any such thing as you describe.
May I ask what you mean by "spitting on a Bible?" What do you mean by "Bible?" You're not referring to a Rabbinic TaNa"KH or a translation of one, are you? Because I can't imagine any Orthodox Jew engaging in such a thing.
Listen to me, every one of you: Orthodox Jews are not chr*stians. They regard chr*stianity as a false religion. You cannot expect them to have the same attitude towards chr*stians that chr*stians have toward them: you acknowledge their Bible, they don't acknowledge yours.
The mixing of Judaism and chr*stianity is regarded by Orthodox Jews as a horror on par with how you view "chrislam." The moslems claim to recognize both Jewish and chr*stian prophets just as chr*stians claim to recognize Jewish prophets.
If you scream bloody murder at moslems who claim to be the fulfillment of chr*stianity and who promote "chrislam," then don't be a freaking hypocrite! Chr*stianity is not part of the Torah or the Jewish Scriptures at all. Stop expecting Jews to act as if they were!
I remarked upon it.
Just yesterday I found this right wing Catholic web site that blamed the Jews for everything, calling them a revolutionary people and the fount of all heresies and (of course) the cause of all modernism and Communism.
Now here's a flipping article squalling because those awful Jews are ultra right wing backwards fundie bigots who've never heard that the wheel has been invented.
These idiots can't make up their minds.
Allow me to close with two observations:
1)There are sinister forces out there trying to keep Jews voting Democrat (especially now), and
2)While I love and appreciate Judaeophilic chr*stians, I am frustrated beyond description that they simply cannot get through their thick heads that Jews do not regard them as anything other than a false religion, exactly as how they themselves regard moslems (or mormons, for that matter).
I don't want to come across as a defender of wacky mormon theology, but some of these people scream at mormons that they "aren't really chr*stians at all," but they expect Orthodox Jews to treat them as if they were fellow Jews, simply because their chr*stian bible has an "old testament" in it!!!
Okay. Done now.
(As an aside, they were sufficiently abusive of that authority to be chastised by Rome on several occasions, and when they were finally shut down in the 1820's, the Spanish government did so without bothering to consult Rome.)
Penalties were the responsibility of the government (as they always were), and the Spanish government wasn't executing Jews for being Jews. They deported them. That was of course unjust; nobody disputes that.
There are several good books out there now which treat the Inquisition quite accurately. One of the best scholars on the topic is a Jewish historian -- I believe he's at Yale -- named Henry Kamen.
Let's stick to facts, and not emotional appeals to hatred and suspicion over something that happened 500 years ago.
I worship a Jewish carpenter who commanded me to forgive seventy-times-seven for any wrong done to me.
That's your answer.
“Unremarked-upon” in the case of #26 is the same as “nobody wants to dignify this with an answer”. The same thing as the Japanese phrase “mokusatsu” ... “to kill with silence”.
Sorta like Mecca or Medina?
You're defending the indefensible.
I hope that this "report" of folks spitting on other folks with whom they disagree is false.
Barring that, I hope such disgusting behaviour is limited to a few fringe whackjobs.
Trying to gin up excuses for them does credit neither to them, nor to you.
The sad piece of this debate is that it seems that more people now believe reconstructed tales that claim to represent reality than those who know the truth based on the facts.
I wonder if it will take the destruction of western civilization to wake people up. And,if that happens, I wonder if any of those persons who are so eager to destroy the Church will apologize for not truly seeking the truth but instead spent their time and energy stopping the pursuit of truth. Some are just protecting the world they have come to feel comfortable in without putting much thought into it lest they have to change their mind set or world view, others don't have a clue about history,philosophy and the the machinations of men with agendas and are relative innocents in a world they didn't make and then there are those who who know exactly what is going on and have a huge investment in the new world they seek to establish with man in charge.
The problem with the Internet is one never knows the motivation of the person/s one is chatting with and I know at least that I need to be careful to not hurt an innocent by some acerbic remark,or amuse a puppet master by explaining something they already knew but are anxious to get their next unsubstantiated non-fact into the conversation,or to ruffle the feathers of one who does not want to be disturbed by actually thinking about what really did happen. Oh well,I just ask the Holy Spirit to not let me write or say anything that would turn a person away from our Triune God and hope for the best. I haven't been saying much for the last few years.
Anyway thanks again for your great posts and comments.
The question is not about you. I was just trying to get you to understand another. -sigh-
The Messiah also said there are two laws together that are the sum of all the laws.
To love the Lord you God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself.
Forgiveness is best when crafted in love.
This is not about history, yours, mine or theirs. This is about the fact that many many Jews were killed by people professing to be from the church of christ. In particular the orthodox sects of the Church, that persecute them TO THIS DAY inside their own nation.
It is not about excuses, its about remembered death and destruction at the hands of those who claim to be representing the Church. What one pope said, vs another really means little to those who have lost family in the most horrible ways than man can devise. The reason Jews became Catholics was persecution, the tuning around and burning at the stake was just further persecution in their mind, they really never saw themselves as property of the pope to be burned alive at his whim just because they were forced to convert. Your deliberate obtuseness and tireless effort to make Catholic apologetics about the inquisition does not excuse it in any way. Does a man, when he turns his life over to Christ become mere chattle of the Italian church to be tortured because some "Church Leader" decides that his live does not meet the sects requirements for a life in Christ? Does it excuse the mass burnings of Jews for the Black Death? The hounding of Jews from Poland, Spain England in their pograms? The open anti-semitism of the Orthodox Churchs to this day? It is not about you, your man who is god on the throne here on earth that cannot be questioned, or what ever history you wish to excuse, it is about blood and honor and what has happened, not what we want to explain it away with. 31000 people murdered, over doctrine. Love your neighbor as yourself, unless it is your brother and he stumbles, then burn him alive? ...WRONG ANSWER... Get that? The Pope was wrong! Even if he is unquestionable, He sinned horribly, no question needed. By his own standards he will be judged before the Lord of Hosts. Have mercy, it is a better path.
This is not about history, yours, mine or theirs. This is about the fact that many many Jews were killed by people professing to be from the church of christ. In particular the orthodox sects of the Church, that persecute them TO THIS DAY inside their own nation.
It is not about excuses, its about remembered death and destruction at the hands of those who claim to be representing the Church. What one pope said, vs another really means little to those who have lost family in the most horrible ways than man can devise. The reason Jews became Catholics was persecution, the tuning around and burning at the stake was just further persecution in their mind, they really never saw themselves as property of the pope to be burned alive at his whim just because they were forced to convert. Your deliberate obtuseness and tireless effort to make Catholic apologetics about the inquisition does not excuse it in any way. Does a man, when he turns his life over to Christ become mere chattle of the Italian church to be tortured because some "Church Leader" decides that his live does not meet the sects requirements for a life in Christ? Does it excuse the mass burnings of Jews for the Black Death? The hounding of Jews from Poland, Spain England in their pograms? The open anti-semitism of the Orthodox Churchs to this day? It is not about you, your man who is god on the throne here on earth that cannot be questioned, or what ever history you wish to excuse, it is about blood and honor and what has happened, not what we want to explain it away with. 31000 people murdered, over doctrine. Love your neighbor as yourself, unless it is your brother and he stumbles, then burn him alive? ...WRONG ANSWER... Get that? The Pope was wrong! Even if he is unquestionable, He sinned horribly, no question needed. By his own standards he will be judged before the Lord of Hosts. Have mercy, it is a better path.
When in a thread about jews spitting on people in orthodox robes, and when it is pointed out the offense some jews have with orthodox you go into a long apologetic about the inquistion about how it only burned catholics (or jews pretending to be catholics) only to launch into a diatribe about hidden agendas?
It does not look like repentance, what is situation warrents, nor mercy which the situation demands, but pride and arrogance.
Please, heart check here. You both were handed a chance to heal on a silver platter and you chose your Orthodoxy.
Is that not the problem? When Church triumps faith?
Yes, but you are being deliberately misleading by omission. The forced conversions (convert or die) happened before the Inquisition, beginning in the late-14th century. And in 1492, the remaining Jewish population was given the "choice" of conversion or having their property seized and being exiled from their country. Many "chose" to convert rather than being forced to flee the land of their birth in abject poverty. These weren't believing Christians who converted voluntarily. They were Jews who wanted to stay Jews but didn't want to be killed or exiled. Then the Inquisition came after them when, surprise, their forced conversions weren't genuine.
Then you are lying. I know a lot about conversion to Orthodox Judaism, and personally know many converts, both male and female. Nothing you said remotely resembles the truth.
Dozens of Christians saw that post over a considerable period of time. Silence. It’s what Christian ‘conservatives’ REALLY think about Jews.
Words such as "wrong" "false" "error" do not attribute motive.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
While the Jews in Spain were indeed faced with many injustices, this it is a vast and libelous exaggeration; it is the creation of a myth of unrelenting torture and murder 500 years ago in order to justify hatred and persecution today.
Notice that I prefaced my remark that with the assumption that your statement that Jews were "burned at the stake for remaining Jews rather than convert to Catholics" referred to the Inquisition, the usual boogeyman for these charges. I will have to admit to ignorance of any such actions in Poland. I would appreciate any documentation that you could offer that it in fact did occur.
As for the actions of Hitler and the Nazi's, they were neo-pagans, not Catholics. It is nothing less than a blood libel to attribute their actions to the Catholic Church. Likewise, Eastern Orthodox are not Catholics.
Only the priestly nation is allowed there.
Sorta like Mecca or Medina?
Yes. It's called "Theocracy." Ever heard of it?
Maybe you should re-read the Book of Joshua and see what ancient Jews (whom you look on as proto-chr*stians) did to worshipers of other "gxds" who lived there. There weren't no "Armenian Quarter" in Jerusalem back then.
You're defending the indefensible.
I'm not defending "spitting" (unless it is commanded or permitted by Halakhah). I am defending faithful Charedi Jews who represent real Judaism, unlike the atheists and liberals conservatives claim to oppose. Judaism is not a modern religion. It isn't an enlightenment religion. Its worldview is from three thousand years ago, not the days of Thomas Jefferson. And if you don't like that . . . if you insist that Jews must be multicultural liberals or else quietly acquiesce to chr*stian proclamations that Judaism is merely pre-"incarnation" chr*stianity . . . then you are against Judaism, the true religion. And then (to quote Razor Ramon), you an' me got a really big problem, Chico!
I hope that this "report" of folks spitting on other folks with whom they disagree is false.
Barring that, I hope such disgusting behaviour is limited to a few fringe whackjobs.
There are certainly whackjobs amongst the Charedim, as among all other peoples. Perhaps you read about the troubles in Bnai Braq with the Gerrer Chasidim. Even Rabbi Yehuda Levin, a particular hero of mine, says his life has been threatened. But posting this article on Free Republic at a time when the Democrats are afraid of losing the Jewish vote serves no purpose whatsoever other than a sinister one.
Trying to gin up excuses for them does credit neither to them, nor to you.
I am defending Charedi Judaism from attack by hypocritical conservatives who claim to love Judaism and who claim to have a pre-enlightenment mentality.
A few years ago a former FReeper (banned) posted an article for no purpose whatsoever than to mock and ridicule the religious custom of Kapparot. I view this article as being in the same vein.
You missed the point that the charge was not that they were Jewish but that they were in a treasonous conspiracy to subvert the Catholic state. The Spanish Inquisition was an instrument of the Spanish state, not the Catholic Church. I am not saying that this was a just action but this is quite different from the false charged that Jews were targeted for execution because they were Jews.
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