Christian, Mormon doctrinal differences

EDITOR'S NOTE: The following information is adapted from the North American Mission Board's www.4truth.net apolgetics website.

ALPHARETTA, Ga. (BP)--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS or Mormon church) professes to be a Christian church. However, a careful comparison of basic doctrinal positions of that church to those of historical, biblical Christianity reveal many radical differences. This comparison utilizes Mormon doctrines as stated in LDS authoritative primary sources and those of historic Christianity as derived solely from the Bible.

The one God is a Spirit who is the personal, eternal, infinite Creator of all that exists. He is the only God and necessary for all other things to exist. He exists eternally as a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (see Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10; 44:6-8; Matt. 28:19; John 4:24; 17:3)

God (Heavenly Father) is an exalted man with a physical body of flesh and bone. LDS founder Joseph Smith said, "If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible -- I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). The trinity is denied with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost seen as three separate entities. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us" (Doctrine and Covenants [D&C] 130:22).

Jesus Christ was the virgin born God incarnate who existed in all time with the Father and Holy Spirit in the eternal Trinity. As a man He possessed two natures -- human and divine. He lived a sinless life and willingly died on the cross as a sacrifice for the sin of all humanity. (see John 1:1-18; 8:56-59; Phil. 2:6-11; Col. 1:13-22; Heb.1:3; 13:8)

Jesus was the spiritual "first born" Son of God in the preexistence. "Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ, so he is literally our elder brother" (Gospel Principles [GP], p. 11)."And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn" (D&C 93:21). He is also the "only begotten" physical offspring of God by procreation on earth. "Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal father. That is why he is called the Only Begotten Son" (GP, p. 64). His atonement (death and resurrection) provides immortality for all people regardless of their faith. "Christ thus overcame physical death. Because of his atonement, everyone born on this earth will be resurrected ... This condition is called immortality. All people who ever lived will be resurrected, 'both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous' (The Book of Mormon [BOM], Alma 11:44)" (GP, p. 74). (See GP, pp. 11, 17-19, 61-77.)

The Bible (Old and New Testaments) is the unique, revealed, and inspired Word of God. It is the sole authority for faith and practice for Christians. (see 2 Tim. 3:15-17; 2 Pet. 1:19-21)

Recognizes the LDS Four Standard Works as authoritative. These include the Bible "as far as it is translated correctly" (Articles of Faith 1:8). It also includes The Book of Mormon (BOM) which Joseph Smith declared is "the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194).

The church also regards The Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) as Scripture. It "is a collection of modern revelations ... regarding The Church of Jesus Christ as it has been restored in these last days" (GP, p. 54).

"It clarifies doctrines and teachings that were lost from the Bible and gives added information concerning the creation of the earth" (GP, p. 54).

The church's president is regarded as "a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet" (D&C 107:91-92).

Human beings are created in God's image, meaning they have personal qualities similar to God's. Every person is a unique, precious being of dignity and worth. (see Gen. 1:26-27)

People are the preexisted spiritual offspring of the Heavenly Father and Mother. "All men and women are ... literally the sons and daughters of Deity ... Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal (physical) body" (Joseph F. Smith, "The Origin of Man," Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, pp. 78,80, as quoted in GP, p. 11).They are born basically good and are "gods in embryo." A commonly quoted Mormon aphorism (attributed to fifth LDS president Lorenzo Snow) says "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."

Human beings have chosen to sin against God, rejecting His nature and pursing life opposed to His essential character and revealed law. (see Rom. 3:23; 7:14-25; 1 John 1:8-10)

People sin by disobedience to God's laws. Adam's fall, a part of Heavenly Father's plan, caused a loss of immortality, which was necessary for mankind to advance, (see GP, pp. 31-34). As Eve declared according to LDS scripture, "Were it not for our transgression we never should have ... known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient"(PGP, Moses 5:11; see also BOM, 2 Nephi 2:22-25). Each person is responsible for his or her own sin.

Salvation is release from the guilt and power of sin through God's gift of grace. It is provided through Christ's atonement and received by personal faith in Christ as Savior and Lord. (see Rom. 3:20; 10:9- 10; Eph. 2:8-10)

Jesus' atonement provided immortality for all people. Exaltation (godhood) is available only to Mormons through obedience to LDS teachings: faith, baptism, endowments, celestial marriage, and tithing. "Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God -- Wherefore, all things are theirs" (D&C, 76:58-59).

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C, 76).

3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have -- all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (See GP, p. 302).

Baptism for the dead provides post-mortem salvation for non-Mormons, and is "by immersion performed by a living person for one who is dead. This ordinance is performed in temples" (GP, p. 375). (See also GP, chapters 18-23.)

Eternal life in heaven with God for those who have trusted in Jesus Christ. Eternal separation from God's presence in hell for the unsaved. (see Matt. 5:12-30; 25:41; Rev. 20-22)

1. Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom for faithful Mormons where people may become gods or angels; "Then shall they be gods" (D&C 132:20).

2. Terrestrial Kingdom for righteous non-Mormons; "These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fullness" (D&C 76:75-76).

3. Telestial Kingdom for wicked and ungodly (not hell); "These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers ... who suffer the wrath of God on earth"(D&C 76:103-104). (See also D&C 76:57-119; 131:1-4.)

Christians congregate together in local bodies and along denominational lines sharing distinctive doctrinal and ecclesiastical concepts. There is no organization or denomination that can claim exclusive designation as the "one true church." The universal church consists of all the redeemed in Jesus Christ in all of the ages. (see Matt. 16:15-19; 1 Cor. 1:12-14; Eph. 2:19; 3:11-12)

Asserts that the LDS is the one true church on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith claimed Jesus Christ told him to join none of the existing denominations because "they were all wrong ... that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (PGP: Joseph Smith-History 1:19-20). Mormons claim only the LDS possesses the divine authority of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood as restored by God to Joseph Smith in 1829. (D&C 13; 27:8- 13; 107:1-20; PGP: Joseph Smith-History 1:68-73) --30-- Tal Davis is the strategic mentoring manager of the North American Mission Board's evangelization group.

Gospel Principles. Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1992.

McConkie, Bruce. A New Witness for the Articles of Faith. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1986.

Smith, Joseph, Jr. The Book of Mormon - Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1982.

Smith, Joseph, Jr. The Doctrine and Covenants. Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1982.

Smith, Joseph, Jr. History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 7 vols. 2nd ed. rev. Edited by B.H. Roberts. Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1932-1951.

Smith, Joseph, Jr. The Pearl of Great Price. Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1982.

Smith, Joseph Fielding. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1977.

I'd say your premise starts with a logical fallacy. That of the argument from silence. It's the same sort of fallacy gay apologists make by trying to say homosexuality is permissible because the gospels are silent on the issue. We know that Jesus says in Matthew 19:14 "but Jesus said, g“Let the little children hcome to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” In Acts 16:32-33 the possibility of infant baptism is raised by the baptism of everyone in a particular household. And there isn't anything saying that only adults were baptized. "32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them zthe same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he awas baptized at once, he and all his family." And the Didache, which was a 1st century catechism written for converts around the same time as the canonical scriptures says the following about baptism: Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before." And St. Irenaeus of Lyon, author of the Against the Heresies, testifies. He was two generations removed from the apostle John, and his spiritual master St. Polycarp was evangelized by St. John the Apostle personally. "4. Being thirty years old when He came to be baptized, and then possessing the full age of a Master, He came to Jerusalem, so that He might be properly acknowledged by all as a Master. For He did not seem one thing while He was another, as those affirm who describe Him as being man only in appearance; but what He was, that He also appeared to be. Being a Master, therefore, He also possessed the age of a Master, not despising or evading any condition of humanity, nor setting aside in Himself that law which He had appointed for the human race, but sanctifying every age, by that period corresponding to it which belonged to Himself. For He came to save all through means of Himself— all, I say, who through Him are born again to God — infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men. So likewise He was an old man for old men, that He might be a perfect Master for all, not merely as respects the setting forth of the truth, but also as regards age, sanctifying at the same time the aged also, and becoming an example to them likewise. Then, at last, He came on to death itself, that He might be the first-born from the dead, that in all things He might have the pre-eminence, Colossians 1:18 the Prince of life, Acts 3:15 existing before all, and going before all." You say that infant baptism initiated apostasy, but aren't you saying that the gates of hell prevailed against the Church contrary to Matthew 16:19? If you want to identify with the Gnostics (the Paulicians, Albigensians be my guest because by doing so you are making my point about Baptists being a heterodox sect that has some sort of claim to hidden knowledge about the Bible.

I'd say your premise starts with a logical fallacy. That of the argument from silence. It's the same sort of fallacy gay apologists make by trying to say homosexuality is permissible because the gospels are silent on the issue.

We know that Jesus says in Matthew 19:14 "but Jesus said, g“Let the little children hcome to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

In Acts 16:32-33 the possibility of infant baptism is raised by the baptism of everyone in a particular household. And there isn't anything saying that only adults were baptized.

"32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them zthe same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he awas baptized at once, he and all his family."

And the Didache, which was a 1st century catechism written for converts around the same time as the canonical scriptures says the following about baptism:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before."

And St. Irenaeus of Lyon, author of the Against the Heresies, testifies. He was two generations removed from the apostle John, and his spiritual master St. Polycarp was evangelized by St. John the Apostle personally.

"4. Being thirty years old when He came to be baptized, and then possessing the full age of a Master, He came to Jerusalem, so that He might be properly acknowledged by all as a Master. For He did not seem one thing while He was another, as those affirm who describe Him as being man only in appearance; but what He was, that He also appeared to be. Being a Master, therefore, He also possessed the age of a Master, not despising or evading any condition of humanity, nor setting aside in Himself that law which He had appointed for the human race, but sanctifying every age, by that period corresponding to it which belonged to Himself. For He came to save all through means of Himself— all, I say, who through Him are born again to God — infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men. So likewise He was an old man for old men, that He might be a perfect Master for all, not merely as respects the setting forth of the truth, but also as regards age, sanctifying at the same time the aged also, and becoming an example to them likewise. Then, at last, He came on to death itself, that He might be the first-born from the dead, that in all things He might have the pre-eminence, Colossians 1:18 the Prince of life, Acts 3:15 existing before all, and going before all."

You say that infant baptism initiated apostasy, but aren't you saying that the gates of hell prevailed against the Church contrary to Matthew 16:19?

If you want to identify with the Gnostics (the Paulicians, Albigensians be my guest because by doing so you are making my point about Baptists being a heterodox sect that has some sort of claim to hidden knowledge about the Bible.

No, that is incorrect. I am clearly stating the command of The Christ without the revision which you presuppose. Please do not call what I stated in the note as my doctrine. It is the gospel of at least Levi and John and Paul. The one you propose is later, is deviant, and is a consequence of “Christianity” being adopted as the state religion, with an unregenerated emperor as its authority and decision-maker, and “infant baptism” being the significance of automatic citizenship by nativity and as a co-religionist imposed. >>As I already pointed out, infant baptism predated St. Constantine's acceptance of Christianity by some 300 years. Christianity didn't even become the state religion of the empire until Emperor Theodosius about 100 years later.

And contrary to the mythology surrounding St. Constantine's adoption of Christianity, it wasn't received well. Those who wanted to be true to Christ rather than imperial politics fled to start the monastic movement, which placed holiness and devotion to Christ over being accepted.

The monks in Byzantium became a headache for the Eastern Roman emperors for the next 1,000 years because they frequently revolted against his control.

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America has an interesting article to this effect:

The establishment of Christianity as a legal religion of the roman Empire by Constantine the Great, with the edict of Milan (313), led to a new decline in the ethical life of Christians. In reaction to this decline, many refused to accept any compromises and fled the world to become monastics. Monasticism thrived, especially in Egypt, with two important monastic centers, one in the desert of Nitria, by the Western Bank of the Nile, with Abba Ammoun (d. 356) as its founder, and one in the desert of Skete, south of Nitria, with Saint Makarios of Egypt (d. ca. Egypt 330) as its founder. These monks were anchorites, following the monastic ideal of St. Anthony. They lived by themselves, gathering together for common worship on Saturdays and Sundays only." http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7103

Baptist Christianity has very little in common with how the Early Christians worshiped or believed. All early Christians continued the Jewish practice of liturgical worship. In fact the Greek text of Acts uses the word leitourgia (liturgy) several times. http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/ourlife/liturgical_worship_in_the_new_testament

On that note, Lutherans and Episcopalians have more in common with early Christians than Baptists do.

Baptism is NOT just a symbol, and I challenge you to provide a verse from scripture or from the ancient writers fo the Church that it was.

John Calvin was the first person to my knowledge who denied that God uses baptism as a physical means of conferring the Holy Spirit.

Apostolic succession is a myth not supported by Scripture, and is only a figment of very active political manipulation. There is no continuity. >>What do you call when the apostles chose Matthias to replace Judas?

Apostolic succession was the norm that the early Christians used to distinguish themselves from the Gnostic heretics who claimed apostolic authority. St. Clement of Rome, who St. Paul mentions in Phillipians 4:3 testifies around 80 A.D. in Chapter 42:Verses 1-3 that: ""Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry." And St. Irenaeus of Lyons writes the following against the Gnostic heretics a century later around 189 A.D.: "It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about".(Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]). "But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2). "Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4). "Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1). "[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession(Baptists?), and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2). "The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8). The line of Apostleship (the Twelve having seen The Christ personally, discipled by Him alone, and ordained by Him face to face as Apostles — the eleven plus Paul), ended with the death of the beloved John at about 100 AD, which was also the closure of the progressive revelation of Holy Scripture. >>Catholics and Orthodox likewise believe this. Pope St. Pius X writes in his Oath Against Modernism in 1907: "..., I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical' misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously." My understanding is that God’s special ordained servants now only include evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Offices in the local church also include qualified elders and appointed deacons (as defined in the pastoral missives). >>The only ministries mention explicitly in scripture are bishops (episkopoi), presbyters (presbyterium), and deacons (diakonoi). The early Church later instituted the ministries of subdeacon, lector, etc. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches alone have maintained these ministries in unbroken succession for over 2,000 years.

And the Anglicans, and some Lutherans, have retained these ministries at least materially.

Apostolic succession is a myth not supported by Scripture, and is only a figment of very active political manipulation. There is no continuity. >>What do you call when the apostles chose Matthias to replace Judas?

Apostolic succession was the norm that the early Christians used to distinguish themselves from the Gnostic heretics who claimed apostolic authority.
,
St. Clement of Rome, who St. Paul mentions in Phillipians 4:3 testifies around 80 A.D. in Chapter 42:Verses 1-3 that: ""Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry."

And St. Irenaeus of Lyons writes the following against the Gnostic heretics a century later around 189 A.D.: "It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about".(Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).

"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).
"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession(Baptists?), and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).

"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).

The line of Apostleship (the Twelve having seen The Christ personally, discipled by Him alone, and ordained by Him face to face as Apostles — the eleven plus Paul), ended with the death of the beloved John at about 100 AD, which was also the closure of the progressive revelation of Holy Scripture.

>>Catholics and Orthodox likewise believe this. Pope St. Pius X writes in his Oath Against Modernism in 1907: "..., I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical' misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously."

My understanding is that God’s special ordained servants now only include evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Offices in the local church also include qualified elders and appointed deacons (as defined in the pastoral missives).

>>The only ministries mention explicitly in scripture are bishops (episkopoi), presbyters (presbyterium), and deacons (diakonoi). The early Church later instituted the ministries of subdeacon, lector, etc. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches alone have maintained these ministries in unbroken succession for over 2,000 years.

And the Anglicans, and some Lutherans, have retained these ministries at least materially.

Wrong again. By such traditions one descends into the error of the scribes and Pharisees — “Why do ye also transgress the commandments of God by your traditions?” “Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own traditions.” That is why the Donatists, the Paulicians, the Albigensians, the Waldensians, the Anabaptists, the Baptists, the brethren out of Plymouth, kept appearing, rejected statist apostasy, were claimed to be heretics, and were persecuted and murdered (and their unadulterated Scriptures burned) by the traditionalists, when they only wished to adhere to the commandments of Christ uncorrupted.

You miss the point of Jesus's talk about the Pharisees. I might add that today's Jews are the descendants of the Pharisees. The Pharisees made observance of all 600+ Levitical commandments over the law of grace.

Orthodox Jews still do this today.

I might add that the Catholic Church applies these warnings against those who place cultural practices before the gospel, including bragging about the numbers of rosaries, fastings, etc. that people do.

The Church condemns anything that is done out of spiritual pride rather than in a spirit of humble service to our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Bible never says that everything that Jesus did or said is contained in Scripture. In fact, the Bible speaks to the contrary.

In John 20:30 attests: "30 uNow Jesus did many other signs vin the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;" And John 21:25 attests: "25 Now qthere are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that rthe world itself could not contain the books that would be written."

Hence the Catholic/Orthodox veneration of extra-scriptural accounts of the lives of Jesus and Mary, and the apostles inasmuch as they do not contradict canonical scripture.

Then we find in 2 Thessalonians 2:15: ἄρα οὖν, ἀδελφοί, στήκετε, καὶ κρατεῖτε τὰς παραδόσεις ἃς ἐδιδάχθητε εἴτε διὰ λόγου εἴτε δι' ἐπιστολῆς ἡμῶν. "15 So then, brothers, dstand firm and hold to ethe traditions that you were taught by us, either fby our spoken word or by four letter."

And in 2 Thessalonians 3:5: Παραγγέλλομεν δὲ ὑμῖν, ἀδελφοί, ἐν ὀνόματι τοῦ κυρίου [ἡμῶν] Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, στέλλεσθαι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ παντὸς ἀδελφοῦ ἀτάκτως περιπατοῦντος καὶ μὴ κατὰ τὴν παράδοσιν ἣν παρελάβοσαν παρ' ἡμῶν. "6 Now we command you, brothers, sin the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, tthat you keep away from any ubrother vwho is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us." The Greek uses the word "paradosis", which means as follows according to a Protestant New Testament Greek lexicon: Paradosis giving up, giving over the act of giving up the surrender of cities a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc. objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching of the body of precepts, esp. ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence."

I challenge you to show how your sect's practices stack up against what we know from outside of scripture about how early Christians believed and worshiped. How are you so sure that you stack up against 2 Thessalonians 3:6?

From what I have been able to see since just before I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism 20 years ago, Protestants don't conform with the verse.

I’m not setting myself up as my own Pope. I’m setting myself up as someone who can read the Bible and believe it says what it means and means what it says.

>>But you are picking and choosing which scriptures to tie together, so in effect you are appointing yourself as your own Church, Pope and hierarchy.

But I’ll say you have a rather novel interpretation. Now show me any Church fathers who used your hermeneutic connecting the appointment of Matthias with this verse.

The Catholic/Orthodox interpretation predates the canon of scripture we have today.

I might add there were 70 apostles, not just the 12.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventy_disciples

I imagine that if a person sitting in the pew next to you has a different interpretation they are a heretic, right?

Read Eusbius’s Ecclesiastical History, which takes the Church’s history from the cross to the time of Constantine.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm

From what I am seeing the only difference from a Baptist and a Mormon is a matter of degrees. Both sects are implicitly Gnostic.

### Do you have any real idea why Matthias was chosen to replace Judas? Hint: it is NOT about Apostolic succession. ###

Yes. My take is that in the period between the time Peter was converted (Jn 21 probably) I believe that he did obey the risen Christ and was engaged in strengthening the brethren (Lk 22:31-32) under the direction of the risen Christ (the Holy Ghost had not yet come). But in the 9 to 10 days between the Ascension and the Pentecost, neither Peter nor the other 10 disciples and core believers were under the direct personal control of The Christ or The Holy Ghost. So, without that restraint and guidance, Peter became restive, and under humanistic reasoning invented a misuse of the Scriptures to assert his sense of establishing himself as a(the?) dominant leader and influence-peddler through the gambit of forcing the fellow disciples to choose a replacement for Judas Iscariot.

Apparently he was able to obtain a consensus of agreement. Then taking the matter in hand, and without any authority to do so, they devised a method whereby a replacement would be selected by them from two of the camp-follower men. One supposes that the lottery method was one which they thought was suggested by Scripture (Lev 16:8, Prov 16:33, Jonah 1:7 for example). Hence they gave themselves the excuse that the choice was of the Lord by the time-honored of casting the lot. So they, instigated by Peter, all conspired against the Lord to execute their will and not His.

Matthias was chosen as the replacement, but was never again mentioned in the New Testament. They had no idea that one of their desperate enemies was to be chosen by God to supply the office of the twelfth and last Apostle, in His own time.

So we see the kind of evil that well-intentioned men can do without waiting on God and without walking in The Spirit. As a consequence Peter, though a great preacher, evangelist, pastor, and discipler, never again achieved the role of executive leadership in his own local church. Moreover, though he claimed the ministry to the Gentiles (Acts 15:7) that ministry to the uncircumcision was committed to Paul by God and the brethren; and Peter was charged with the ministry to the circumcision (mostly the diaspora?).

It would be well to note that Mary, the mother of Jesus, apparently had no authoritative voice in these deliberations, even in the 10 days before Pentecost when any Spirit-led person ought to have spoken up against the anthropocentric machinations of Peter and his cohorts. But the Holy Spirit had as yet had fallen on none. Though converted, there were none regenerated — none had the indwelling Holy Ghost, and none were speaking by inspiration.

Also note that later on her son James (Jacob) became the pastor of the First local church — that of Jerusalem. Another of her sons, Jude, wrote the definitive tract on apostasy. But she was not mentioned again after the commencement of the Church Age on Pentecost.

2 Timothy 2:15 is what the Catholic Church adheres to unlike your own sect, which only dates from the 17th century.

My response is from Matthew 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”

The following verses apply to Protestantism and the followers of your sect because you have not kept the traditions of the apostles and have created a new gospel.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

Acts 20:30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

A sacrament is an outward sign of inward grace, and it is not a human work. To think otherwise is to depart from scripture as well as tradition.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.