Posted on 10/29/2011 3:31:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Catholics who believe a purifying fire will purge away their sins are deluded victims of a fatal fabrication. The invention of a place for purification of sins called Purgatory is one of the most seductive attractions of the Roman Catholic religion. Pastor John MacArthur of Grace Community Church described this deceptive hoax brilliantly. He said: "Purgatory is what makes the whole system work. Take out Purgatory and it's a hard sell to be a Catholic. Purgatory is the safety net, when you die, you don't go to hell. You go [to Purgatory] and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven if you've been a good Catholic. In the Catholic system you can never know you're going to heaven. You just keep trying and trying...in a long journey toward perfection. Well, it's pretty discouraging. People in that system are guilt-ridden, fear-ridden and have no knowledge of whether or not they're going to get into the Kingdom. If there's no Purgatory, there's no safety net to catch me and give me some opportunity to get into heaven. It's a second chance, it's another chance after death" (from "The Pope and the Papacy").
The Origin of Purgatory
There was no mention of Purgatory during the first two centuries of the church. However, when Roman Emperor Theodosius (379-395) decreed that Christianity was to be the official religion of the empire, thousands of pagans flooded into the Church and brought their pagan beliefs and traditions with them. One of those ancient pagan beliefs was a place of purification where souls went to make satisfaction for their sins.
The concept became much more widespread around 600 A.D. due to the fanaticism of Pope Gregory the Great. He developed the doctrine through visions and revelations of a Purgatorial fire. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (CE), Pope Gregory said Catholics "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and "the pain [is] more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life." Centuries later, at the Council of Florence (1431), it was pronounced an infallible dogma. It was later reaffirmed by the Council of Trent (1564). The dogma is based largely on Catholic tradition from extra- biblical writings and oral history. "So deep was this belief ingrained in our common humanity that it was accepted by the Jews, and in at least a shadowy way by the pagans, long before the coming of Christianity" (CE). It seems incomprehensible that Rome would admit to using a pagan tradition for the defense of one of its most esteemed "Christian" doctrines.
The Deception of Purgatory
Purgatory comes from the Latin word purgare, which means to make clean or to purify. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines purgatory as "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in Gods grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." They must be purified of these "venial" sins before they can be allowed into heaven. Here we see Catholicism perpetuating the seductive lie of Satan by declaring "you will not surely die" when you commit venial sins (Gen. 3:4). The Council of Trent dares to declare that "God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction and will punish sin...The sinner, failing to do penance in this life, may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God." (Session 15, Can. XI). Those Catholic Bishops had the audacity to declare that the suffering and death of God's perfect man and man's perfect substitute was not sufficient to satisfy divine justice for sin.
The Motivation for Purgatory
Over the centuries billions of dollars have been paid to Roman Catholic priests to obtain relief from imaginary sufferings in Purgatory's fire. The Catholic clergy has always taught that the period of suffering in Purgatory can be shortened by purchasing indulgences and novenas, buying Mass cards and providing gifts of money. When a Catholic dies, money is extracted from mourning loved ones to shorten the deceased's punishment in Purgatory. When my dear old dad passed away as a devout Catholic of 79 years, I was amazed at the hundreds of Mass cards purchased for him by well-meaning friends. We have heard of other Catholics who have willed their entire estates to their religion so that perpetual masses could be offered for them after they die. It is no wonder that the Catholic religion has become the richest institution in the world. The buying and selling of God's grace has been a very lucrative business for the Vatican.
Another motivation for Rome to fabricate the heretical doctrine of Purgatory is its powerful effect on controlling people. Ultimately, the enslavement and subjugation of people is the goal of every false religion, and Purgatory does exactly that. The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!
Another motivation for Rome to fabricate the heretical doctrine of Purgatory is its powerful effect on controlling people. Ultimately, the enslavement and subjugation of people is the goal of every false religion, and Purgatory does exactly that. The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!
Another motivation for Rome to fabricate the heretical doctrine of Purgatory is its powerful effect on controlling people. Ultimately, the enslavement and subjugation of people is the goal of every false religion, and Purgatory does exactly that. The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!
Biblical Support for Purgatory
There is absolutely none! In fact, neither the word nor the concept of sin-purifying fire is found in Scripture. The Vatican was confronted with this in the 16th century when the Reformers protested its practice of buying and selling of God's grace through indulgences. Backed into a corner, the Council of Trent added the apocryphal books to its canon of Scripture. Rome now declares there is scriptural support for purgatory in the apocryphal book of Second Maccabees. The council ignored the fact that the Jewish scribes never recognized the apocryphal books as inspired or part of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were never included because of their many historical, theological and geographical errors. Since God is not the author of error, He obviously did not inspire the writers of the Apocrypha. This is why the Apocrypha was never included in the original canon of 66 books. ..........."
The Biblical Rebuke of Purgatory
God's Word leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ. The beloved apostle John penned these words with irrefutable clarity. He wrote, "The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" and "all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:7, 9). John did not say "some" sins or "most" sins, but all sin! This soundly rebukes the need for a sin-purging fire. God's Word also declares, "All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb. 9:22). When Jesus "made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:3). Those who desire to have their sins purged need to trust a person, not a place. The blood of Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin! Those who come to the cross of Christ must come with empty hands of faith, bringing nothing but their sins.
Every blood-bought believer is instantly present with their Redeemer at the moment of death. To be "absent from the body" is to be "at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:6-8). This good news was affirmed by the Lord Jesus with the promise He gave to the repentant thief at Calvary. He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). This habitual sinner did not need a fire to purge his sins.
Catholics who believe in Purgatory need to be asked: "Who is in charge of releasing souls from the purging fire?" It cannot be God because of His promise to believers. "Their sins and iniquities I will remember no more" (Heb. 10:17). After conversion, God no longer counts sins against His children (2 Cor. 5:19).
Purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a disgraceful fabrication that robs Christ Jesus of His glory and honor. He alone satisfied divine justice, once and for all, by the perfect and finished sacrifice of Himself. The fatal deception of Purgatory blinds Catholics from the glorious Gospel of grace. It is one of Satan's many lies which keep his captives from knowing and trusting the sufficiency of Jesus Christ. It is Christ alone that will present us "faultless before the presence of his glory" (Jude 24).
I told you the name of the Thread. Go there and read it yourself. I didn’t write it. A Expert in Purgatory, or some such person wrote it. Your argument is with them, not me.
I know, ;-D, I post this all the time. Love it!
Funny. I've always believed, according to the Scripture itself, that the Bible is God-breathed..... I've always looked to God to thank Him for providing the Scriptures to us. Don't you? Or do you thank "Rome"?
So...does the Roman Catholic Church add yet another heretical claim to the books by stating that the Roman Catholic Church is the author of Scripture? Or that only through the existence of the RCC that the Bible is available?
Either way, you're on thin ice. It is God's Word. Not the RCC's. He is the source and provider of Scripture. The Scriptures existed LONG before the Roman Catholic Church sprang up.
Your claim is humorous on yet another level in that the Roman Catholic Church spent much time and effort to suppress the Scripture for many years. Odd now that it wishes to claim that it provided it to the world.
Fail.
Hoss
The Apostles Creed differentiates between the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" and the "Communion of Saints". How much else of the Apostles Creed do you reject?
I believe Yah'shua when He said He would All the writers were Jews.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
leave the comforter to tell us what we needed.
***According to John even Enoch and Elisha are not in the realm of heaven were Christ came from.***
No man has ascended into the heavens by his own accord unless God has taken them up.
Only Enoch, Moses and Elisha, so where are they? Did God open the cell door to Moses and Elisha so they could be with Christ at the transfiguration?
Floggin' a dead horse, Mom. Context, exegesis... means nothing to the Roman Catholic; not when Tradition and "The Church" tells them what to believe.
Hoss
What the Church means by Purgatory
Radio Replies Second Volume - Purgatory
Purgatory Exists. And It Burns
The Month of November: Thoughts on the "Last Things"
To Trace All Souls Day (Protestants vs Catholics)
Radio Replies First Volume - Purgatory
The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]
The Heroic Act [Catholic-Orthodox Caucus] (Offering everything for the Souls in Purgatory)
MONTLIGEON MIRACLE: HOW PRIEST TURNED INTO 'TRAVELING SALESMAN' OF PURGATORY
IN BRUSH WITH DEATH, PRIEST SHOWN HELL, PURGATORY, DEGREES OF SUFFERING
Praying for the Dead [All Souls Day] (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Purgatory: Service Shop for Heaven [Ecumernical]
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]
OF GUARDIAN ANGELS AND THE ROLE THEY PLAY NOT JUST ON EARTH BUT IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
IN ANNALS OF SAINTS IS CONVERT'S STRIKING DEDICATION TO THOSE SOULS IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]
PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus] What Happens After Death?
Purgatory
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory
The Doctrine of Purgatory
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.
(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory
Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?
Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?
Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)
Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory
The Forgotten Souls in Purgatory
Praying for the dead [Purgatory]
Ah.. no. The previous point was that Christ told the thief that the thief would be with Christ TODAY in Paradise. If "Purgatory" existed, why didn't Christ say that? No reason, apparently, because the Thief's FAITH in Christ through grace saved him -- not baptism, not "The Church," -- God's grace.
And I would bet that he WAS in Paradise that day with Christ, sans "Purgatory" and enjoys his presence today. I bet that because Christ said it -- not "The Church."
Hoss
BTTT!
That reminds me of a post I read in the RCC returning to traditional Mass thread. One poster in it stated they were glad mass would be given in Latin the same language Christ taught in. Christ taught in Aramaic as it was used in The Temple and by Jews as a whole. Why would He use Latin? He might have possibly spoken Latin to Pilate or Herod but I doubt that as they understood Aramaic. So by returning to the oldest tradition should mass not be done in Aramaic instead of Latin?
See that’s why we have the Catholic Church. We are all sinners and we will always sin.
Ain’t confession great?
***
Once Saved, Always Saved The Logical Evidence
As with many other scriptural doctrines, the idea of once saved, always saved is also supported logically. Eternal security is consistent with everything else the Bible teaches about mankind, and God. Examining the doctrine in relation to the rest of Scripture demonstrates that it is consistent with all other biblically sound teachings. The idea of losing our salvation is not only unscriptural, but it creates monumental problems with other doctrines, including salvation by faith, the sin nature of man, and the purpose of Christs sacrifice.
The Bible teaches that man is inherently sinful that a sinful nature is a part of all of us (Romans 3:10). This means that even after being saved, every single believer is going to sin from time to time. Thinking that we can live a perfect, sinless life after our salvation is not only unscriptural, but arrogant (James 2:10). If we are not eternally secure, this sinning will cause us to lose our salvation, but how much sin is too much? There is no scriptural yardstick given to tell us how many or what kind of sins are enough to void our salvation. Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual game of Russian Roulette; a life in which condemnation and salvation alternate every time we sin and confess, and we never know if were saved or not.
***
Then why does Paul tell us to to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?
<< Philippians 2 >>
King James Version
1If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Noting you stated about St. Dismas is incompatible with Purgatory. Why don't you explain what you think Purgatory is or do I have to conclude that you make a practice of using words you don't understand or know the meaning of.
I need to sit down now, I'm dizzy. The Irony-Go-Round is not for the faint of heart.
I read some of that also. It was interesting that that thread was started as a caucus thread after we discussed it here. Countering with scripture seems impossible for Catholics when scripture is used to dispute Catholic beliefs. Of course we need to keep in mind that scripture comes after the CC authority for Catholics also.
Purgatory
by Sebastian R. Fama
In 1 John 5:17, we see that there are different degrees of sin: "All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly." The Greek word used for deadly, Thanatos (θάνατος), signifies spiritual death as a consequence of sin what we would call eternal damnation. The book of Revelation tells us that nothing unclean shall enter heaven (21:27). What would happen if we did not repent of a sin that was "not deadly" and we died? We are neither damned nor forgiven yet we must be forgiven to enter heaven.
Temporal punishment, which is one aspect of divine justice, is found in at least two places in the Old Testament. Once, when Moses and Aaron are not allowed to enter the Promised Land because of their sin, (Numbers 20:12) and again when David is found guilty of murder and adultery. Although they all repented and were forgiven, God still punished them (2 Samuel 12:13-14). Purgatory is a place where satisfaction is made for unrepented venial (not deadly) sins and for temporal punishment due for all past sins.
In Matthew 12:32 Jesus says, "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Why does Jesus talk about forgiveness after death?
Jesus speaks of purgatory in Matthew 18:23-35. While speaking on forgiveness He says: "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to..." and then He tells a story about a king who forgave a servant's large debt. That same servant refused to forgive a much smaller amount of a fellow servant. The king then threw the first servant into prison "until he should pay back the whole debt." Jesus then says, "So will my Heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart." What prison is there in the kingdom of heaven where you might remain until your debt is satisfied purgatory maybe?
Paul also spoke of purgatory in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. He says in part, "The work of each will come to light, for the day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someones work is burned up, that one will suffer loss, the person will be saved, but only as through fire."
Those detained in Purgatory can be aided by the prayers of the faithful. Inscriptions in the catacombs bear witness to this ancient Church teaching. One reads, "Intercession has been made for the soul of the dear one departed and God has heard the prayer, and the soul has passed into a place of light and refreshment." Another one reads, "In your prayers remember us who have gone before you."
Support is also found in the writings of Tertullian (200AD), who declares that prayers for the dead are an apostolic ordinance. Clement of Alexandria (150-216 AD) writes about a place after death where "expiation and purification" occur before heaven is attained. Other Church Fathers agree, such as Origen (185-254 AD), Cyprian (200-258 AD), Jerome (342-420 AD), Ambrose (340-397 AD), Augustine (354-430 AD), and many others.
The tradition of the Jews is found in 2 Maccabees 12:42-46: "Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out...He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin."
The Jewish historian Josephus, while commenting on the endurance of the Jews under siege in the year 63, writes, "Just as if deep peace enfolded the city, the daily sacrifices, offerings for the dead, and every other act of worship were meticulously carried out to the glory of God" (The Jewish War). If this is wrong, as some contend, and it was practiced in Jesus' day, why didn't He or the Apostles condemn it?
Certainly the article LIES about what the Catholic Church teaches. Lies from bigots remain lies.
It’s interesting the things that are said when there is almost no chance of Scripture being interjected into the conversation. Just one oddity after another. But done safely, so no one can be called on it. “Close the blinds, lock the doors. We’re going to talk about our beliefs.” What kind of religious system does that?
catholic=universal. Your assertion=falsehood.
Hoss
PURGATORYScriptureTradition / Church Fathers
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