Posted on 10/28/2011 6:59:29 AM PDT by markomalley
October 31 is only three days away. For Protestants, it is Reformation Day, the date in 1517 on which Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to that famous door in Wittenberg, Germany. Since I returned to the Catholic Church in April 2007, each year the commemoration has become a time of reflection about my own journey and the puzzles that led me back to the Church of my youth.
One of those puzzles was the relationship between the Church, Tradition, and the canon of Scripture. As a Protestant, I claimed to reject the normative role that Tradition plays in the development of Christian doctrine. But at times I seemed to rely on it. For example, on the content of the biblical canon whether the Old Testament includes the deuterocanonical books (or Apocrypha), as the Catholic Church holds and Protestantism rejects. I would appeal to the exclusion of these books as canonical by the Jewish Council of Jamnia (A.D. 90-100) as well as doubts about those books raised by St. Jerome, translator of the Latin Vulgate, and a few other Church Fathers.
My reasoning, however, was extra-biblical. For it appealed to an authoritative leadership that has the power to recognize and certify books as canonical that were subsequently recognized as such by certain Fathers embedded in a tradition that, as a Protestant, I thought more authoritative than the tradition that certified what has come to be known as the Catholic canon. This latter tradition, rejected by Protestants, includes St. Augustine as well as the Council of Hippo (A.D. 393), the Third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397), the Fourth Council of Carthage (A.D. 419), and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1441).
But if, according to my Protestant self, a Jewish council and a few Church Fathers are the grounds on which I am justified in saying what is the proper scope of the Old Testament canon, then what of New Testament canonicity? So, ironically, given my Protestant understanding of ecclesiology, then the sort of authority and tradition that apparently provided me warrant to exclude the deuterocanonical books from Scripture binding magisterial authority with historical continuity is missing from the Church during the development of New Testament canonicity.
The Catholic Church, on the other hand, maintains that this magisterial authority was in fact present in the early Church and thus gave its leadership the power to recognize and fix the New Testament canon. So, ironically, the Protestant case for a deuterocanonical-absent Old Testament canon depends on Catholic intuitions about a tradition of magisterial authority.
This led to two other tensions. First, in defense of the Protestant Old Testament canon, I argued, as noted above, that although some of the Churchs leading theologians and several regional councils accepted what is known today as the Catholic canon, others disagreed and embraced what is known today as the Protestant canon. It soon became clear to me that this did not help my case, since by employing this argumentative strategy, I conceded the central point of Catholicism: the Church is logically prior to the Scriptures. That is, if the Church, until the Council of Florences ecumenical declaration in 1441, can live with a certain degree of ambiguity about the content of the Old Testament canon, that means that sola scriptura was never a fundamental principle of authentic Christianity.
After all, if Scripture alone applies to the Bible as a whole, then we cannot know to which particular collection of books this principle applies until the Bibles content is settled. Thus, to concede an officially unsettled canon for Christianitys first fifteen centuries seems to make the Catholic argument that sola scriptura was a sixteenth-century invention and, therefore, not an essential Christian doctrine.
Second, because the list of canonical books is itself not found in Scripture as one can find the Ten Commandments or the names of Christs apostles any such list, whether Protestant or Catholic, would be an item of extra-biblical theological knowledge. Take, for example, a portion of the revised and expanded Evangelical Theological Society statement of faith suggested (and eventually rejected by the membership) by two ETS members following my return to the Catholic Church. It states that, this written word of God consists of the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments and is the supreme authority in all matters of belief and behavior.
But the belief that the Bible consists only of sixty-six books is not a claim of Scripture, since one cannot find the list in it, but a claim about Scripture as a whole. That is, the whole has a property i.e., consisting of sixty-six books, that is not found in any of the parts. In other words, if the sixty-six books are the supreme authority on matters of belief, and the number of books is a belief, and one cannot find that belief in any of the books, then the belief that Scripture consists of sixty-six particular books is an extra-biblical belief, an item of theological knowledge that is prima facie non-biblical.
For the Catholic, this is not a problem, since the Bible is the book of the Church, and thus there is an organic unity between the fixing of the canon and the development of doctrine and Christian practice.
Although I am forever indebted to my Evangelical brethren for instilling and nurturing in me a deep love of Scripture, it was that love that eventually led me to the Church that had the authority to distinguish Scripture from other things.
I think not.
Saint Nicholas was not protestant. The historical Saint Nicholas is remembered and revered among Catholic and Orthodox Christians. [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Saint_Nicholas]
Looks to me like we have our Catholic friends for coming up with Santa Clause. He would be a Catholic it would seem.
The Holy Mother of God is not equal with Jesus Christ. That is not Catholic Doctrine either:
From the Akathist:
To Thee, the Champion Leader, we Thy servants dedicate a feast of victory and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O Theotokos: but as Thou art one with might which is invincible, from all dangers that can be do Thou deliver us, that we may cry to Thee: Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride! (Customarily sung three times at the beginning of the Akathist, once at the end.)
Ikos 1
Priest: An archangel was sent from Heaven to say to the Theotokos: Rejoice! And beholding Thee, O Lord, taking bodily form, he was amazed and with his bodiless voice he stood crying to Her such things as these:
Rejoice, Thou through whom joy will shine forth:
Rejoice, Thou through whom the curse will cease!
Rejoice, recall of fallen Adam:
Rejoice, redemption of the tears of Eve!
Rejoice, height inaccessible to human thoughts:
Rejoice, depth undiscernible even for the eyes of angels!
Rejoice, for Thou art the throne of the King:
Rejoice, for Thou bearest Him Who beareth all!
Rejoice, star that causest the Sun to appear:
Rejoice, womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Rejoice, Thou through whom creation is renewed:
Rejoice, Thou through whom we worship the Creator!
Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded!
Kontakion 2
Priest: Seeing herself to be chaste, the holy one said boldly to Gabriel: The marvel of thy speech is difficult for my soul to accept. How canst thou speak of a birth from a seedless conception? And She cried: Alleluia!
Ikos 2
Priest: Seeking to know knowledge that cannot be known, the Virgin cried to the ministering one: Tell me, how can a son be born from a chaste womb? Then he spake to Her in fear, only crying aloud thus:
Rejoice, initiate of God’s ineffable will:
Rejoice, assurance of those who pray in silence!
Rejoice, beginning of Christ’s miracles:
Rejoice, crown of His dogmas!
Rejoice, heavenly ladder by which God came down:
Rejoice, bridge that conveyest us from earth to Heaven!
Rejoice, wonder of angels sounded abroad:
Rejoice, wound of demons bewailed afar!
Rejoice, Thou Who ineffably gavest birth to the Light:
Rejoice, Thou Who didst reveal Thy secret to none!
Rejoice, Thou Who surpassest the knowledge of the wise:
Rejoice, Thou Who givest light to the minds of the faithful!
Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded!
Kontakion 3
Priest: The power of the Most High then overshadowed the Virgin for conception, and showed Her fruitful womb as a sweet meadow to all who wish to reap salvation, as they sing: Alleluia!
Ikos 3
Priest: Having received God into Her womb, the Virgin hastened to Elizabeth whose unborn babe at once recognized Her embrace, rejoiced, and with leaps of joy as songs, cried to the Theotokos:
Rejoice, branch of an Unfading Sprout:
Rejoice, acquisition of Immortal Fruit!
Rejoice, laborer that laborest for the Lover of mankind:
Rejoice, Thou Who givest birth to the Planter of our life!
Rejoice, cornland yielding a rich crop of mercies:
Rejoice, table bearing a wealth of forgiveness!
Rejoice, Thou Who makest to bloom the garden of delight:
Rejoice, Thou Who preparest a haven for souls!
Rejoice, acceptable incense of intercession:
Rejoice, propitiation of all the world!
Rejoice, good will of God to mortals:
Rejoice, boldness of mortals before God!
Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded!
Kontakion 4
Priest: Having within a tempest of doubting thoughts, the chaste Joseph was troubled. For knowing Thee to have no husband, he suspected a secret union, O blameless one. But having learned that Thy conception was of the Holy Spirit, he said: Alleluia!
Ikos 4
Priest: While the angels were chanting, the shepherds heard of Christ’s coming in the flesh, and having run to the Shepherd, they beheld Him as a blameless Lamb that had been pastured in Mary’s womb, and singing to Her, they cried:
Rejoice, Mother of the Lamb and the Shepherd:
Rejoice, fold of rational sheep!
Rejoice, torment of invisible enemies:
Rejoice, opening of the gates of Paradise!
Rejoice, for the things of Heaven rejoice with the earth:
Rejoice, for the things of earth join chorus with the heavens!
Rejoice, never-silent mouth of the Apostles:
Rejoice, invincible courage of the passion-bearers!
Rejoice, firm support of faith:
Rejoice, radiant token of Grace!
Rejoice, Thou through whom hades was stripped bare:
Rejoice, Thou through whom we are clothed with glory!
Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded!
When did the names of the months become religious?
Oh, NO No No...Santa a Catholic..Makes sense. Keep a list of who’s naughty and nice. The nice ones are rewarded. The naughty ones are put on some purgatory probation for a year. NEXT year they COULD be rewarded. IF they’re nice.
Do you deny 1 Timothy 2:5???
If the Roman Catholic Church's catechism teaches Mary as an intercessor and mediatrix, then it teaches falsehood. She has nothing to do with bringing anyone grace or salvation. Yet the C[R]CC church TEACHES EXACTLY THAT.
Re-read 969. I pray God will open your heart and mind to the Truth.
Hoss
The point is, that which is good can be used for good, no matter the source.
Your question to me is actually striking. Speaking for myself, I don’t have my “faith” separated from the rest of my life. My faith is a part of my life every day. So, if I were offended by something secular, that offended my faith, I wouldn’t brush it aside by saying, “well that’s not a religious question”.
It shouldn’t surprise me anymore how much so many (including many Catholics) separate their faith from their everyday lives, as if the two (religion and “real life”) have nothing in common, have nothing to do with each other, and “shouldn’t” (according to the same people).
Either it is true as a matter of course that “good things, no matter the source, can be used for good”, or it’s not. That is, the preceeding phrase in quotes is a truism, in “religion” AND in “real life”, or it’s not.
To make it clear, it no longer makes sense to me when someone says, “That’s only a religious question. It doesn’t apply to real life.”
To me that says one’s religion, one’s faith isn’t truly real. So when someone says to me, it’s “pagan” to celebrate Christmas (for example) and yet still doesn’t have a problem with the names of the months having pagan origins, it means to me that person doesn’t believe their faith has any connection to reality, this reality, here and now. It means that, to me, because clearly such a person has two definitions of what is real, “religious reality” (whatever that means, actually it means nothing but just a feel good way to “believe in God”) and real life “reality”.
My Catholic faith has broken the artificial man made barrier between “religious reality” and “real life reality”. I truly pity those who’s faith is not so real.
Contrary to Catholic thinking, adjusting to a new religion does not make one a Christian...Signing on as a Catholic and going thru the physical ritual of getting sprinkled upon has nothing to do with Christianity...
Becoming a Christian is a spiritual operation from within...
So does praying and kneeling and worshipping.
But your are worshiping a cracker...And most of your prayer is to the mother of Jesus...
So does breaking bread together. Shall we forgo those as well?
Jesus commands us to break bread in remembrance of Him...But you guys don't break bread...You are handed a wafer which dissolves in your mouth...The key is in breaking the bread, which you guys don't do...
Yet you claim you understand the Gospels and Revelation is still a complete mystery to you...Perhaps you should rethink your statement...
Exactly...There is only ONE Holy Father and he doesn't wear red shoes and kid's red cowboy hats to make him look religious(?)...
As I said, I am eastern orthodox. Not RC
As I said, I am eastern orthodox. Not RC
As I said, I am eastern orthodox. Not RC
As I said, I am eastern orthodox. Not RC
and then you post:
As I said, I am eastern orthodox. Not RC
Then why make a claim to support Roman Catholicism which is shown by their own catechism to to be apostate?
Hoss
Don’t forget he wears dresses... ;)
Seriously though — once refuted by scripture, why would Rome continue to espouse such filth?
Hoss
Negative. I was agreeing with you. It is to my detriment that it did not come across that way.
Very good. Thursday is Thor's day. I guess that all the rabble of the Reformation does not recognize Thursdays, then. And Saturday, being the day of Saturn, is at once held in horror by the pseudo Christians and at the same time, held as the Sabbath day by the Judaizers. What to do...
My apologies sir.....I misunderstood.
Because even though the Eastern Church may disagree with Rome on some doctrine and dogma, they are STILL our sister in Christ, and closer to us than Protestants. Most of our differences lie in doctrine promulgated at Vatican I......
Really.....really?
Really, really.
So... Is your church's "holy father" in Rome? Yes? Thus Roman Catholic Church.
The Vicar of Christ lives in a small apartment in the Vatican, if that's what you mean.
You can do better than that.
As regularly demonstrated to the heretic, apostate and pagan on this and other fora.
As for "hung up" -- only on truth. Something the Roman Catholic Church needs a HUGE dose of.
I will quote the KJV for you.
1 Timothy 3:King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
The failures of the Reformation are still failure, no matter how much its adherents may bray.
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