Reformation Day – and What Led Me To Back to Catholicism

The Catholic Thing ^ | 10/28/11 | Francis J. Beckwith

[CynicalBear]

Isn’t that a part of the RCC meme in the past. Restrict what the people can read so as to maintain dominance? It seems a well entrenched ideology. As if the truth of Christ can be suppressed.

[smvoice]

"Consensus does not equal accuracy."

HELLO, everything about the RCC. You've swerved into the TRUTH. About your Church.

So any book that would consider Catholicism wrong and prove it, is not "authoritative" in your view? That would have to include the Bible. You want to ban the Bible as a source for posting things that are against Catholic teachings and doctrines?

[FamiliarFace]

Good morning! Thank you for welcoming me back. I only posted my previous thoughts and prayers, because I was hoping to be helpful, just a gentle reminder that some posters (on both sides) are being very contentious. Perhaps my mistake was that I did not state “Peace be with you” when I first posted to this thread. I meant it but did not state it outright. I suppose that is why peace is not returning to me from some. I’m sorry for my error. I consider myself a sinner, not a saint, therefore, not a saintly person. It is something I aspire to, though.

I believe there are hypocrites all around us, both Catholic and Protestant. Reproof and correction is fine, but (to me) it is helpful to have the fruits of the Spirit when we are correcting each other. Yes, there is spiritual warfare, and it is important, but we should be encouraging each other, and saying things kindly and lovingly, even when we disagree. I am not anti- any denomination. I believe we can ALL learn something from each other.

What would be the point of having a new screen name if I told what my old one was? I wanted a fresh start, so after several years of not posting, I got permission from JimRob to open a new account with a new screen name. There are probably only a few who remember me well, and perhaps not even in the Religion forum. I’m not sure I posted prolifically on these threads in the “old” days, but have always done more reading of them.

I do pray for the salvation of souls, and I hope that is the true motivation of everyone posting here. Peace to you all.

[MarkBsnr]

Notice that the entire chapter 25 of Matthew concentrates on works? There is nothing about faith here, only faithfulness and works. Eternal hell is the reward for bad works.

Knowing that this is not the first time we have had this discussion, all I can do is present the truth God has revealed in Scripture and pray that the Holy Spirit opens your eyes and heart to the truth.

Right back atcha.

Eternal hell is NOT the reward for bad works.

I think that you are conflating rewards for behaviour and punishment for misbehaviour with predestination.

Notice what Jesus said? They are sheep and goats because of what they do, not who they are predestined to be. They are rewarded or condemned based upon what they do or do not do.

Everyone is originally written into the Book of Life - and they are subtracted from it according to their deeds, as Revelation 3:5 indicates. Only those who overcome (with His Grace, of course) are not erased from the Book of Life.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1)

As long as you remain in Christ Jesus.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

As long as you keep believing and acting accordingly.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Rom. 5:18)

One may decline a free gift - look around at the world today.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18)

As long as you remain a believer.

[CynicalBear]

>> I notice that the usual suspects simply either 1, ignore other viewpoints,<<

When “other viewpoints” are proven to be in error it’s obvious they should be discounted and ignored.

>> quote anti-Catholic sources as authoritative<<

When those “sources” are proven correct on those points one can easily prove from other sources then it isn’t they who are “authoritative” but the facts they put forth.

How about putting forth “facts” that refute?

[MarkBsnr]

I don't know of any such study or really how one would conduct it but the times in the OT when reading or writing is mentioned is not treated as an unusual skill. For example at Judges 8:13,14 when Gideon captures a man from Succoth. Both are able to read and write.

Certainly the Israelites were one of the more literate societies at the time, but when illiteracy in nomadic or agrarian groups was normally at 97% or more, anything less than that was notable. Matthew the tax collector would have been literate, as was Luke and Paul. Where did the rest of the Apostles get their education? Peter? A fisherman? Unlikely.

However, we are still faced with Peter's writings. One would assume that exposure to the life of an evangelist would have been educational in many ways.

[smvoice]

They’ve had 2000 years to get it together. And after all that time, they still have only two tricks: Attack the messenger and try to get the message suppressed.

[MarkBsnr]

Of course I wasn't asking you to believe in the two gods of Mormons or the one of JWs, was I? I was asking you to read for yourself what Scripture actually says rather than what someone tells you it says. Maybe you SHOULD examine why your Church would anathematize you for believing what Scripture says. What you can read for yourself. Ask why they would have you believe THEM over what God clearly says in Scripture.

I am unaware of any teachings of the Church that violate Scripture. Scripture is taught and preached every Mass and we have the whole Bible presented to us. We do not have a redacted or excerpted Bible.

[Salvation]

And the other side of the coin, with Biblical references, no less!

The One true Church, and how to recognize it.

Use this guideline as a measure...

*It was founded by Jesus Christ Himself in Mt 16:18.
*It would be built on Simon Peter, Mt 16:18.
*It would be defended by GOD Himself, Mt 16:18-19.
*It would have authority given by Jesus Christ, Mt 16:19,18:17-18.
*It would be guided by the Holy Spirit who will dwell within it, Jn 14:15-17, Act 15:28,16:6.
*It would be one and undivided, Mk 3:24-25.
*It would have one fold and one shepherd, Jn 10:16.
*It would have Priests, Bishops, and Deacons, 1Tim 3:1-13.
*It must have the Holy Eucharist celebration, Jn 6:42-70, Act 2:42.
*It must be found in all nations, Mt 28:19.
*It must be found in all centuries, Mt 28:20.
*Jesus Christ said He would be with His Church every day, in every year, until the end of the world,   Mt 28:20. (This means no gaps in time.)

[smvoice]

You have just described, with Scripture the One true Church: The Kingdom Church. Where Israel will be a Nation of priests and a blessing to all Nations. Made up of the Little Flock of Believers during Christ's earthly ministry and soon to become God's center of attention again, during the Tribulation. When He will be dealing with nations again, not individuals, and the Nation of Israel in particular. Just like He did during His earthly ministry.

what you have not described, with Scripture, is the One body, one Spirit, one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all": The CHURCH THE BODY OF CHRIST for this age of grace. Eph. 4:4-6.

You have described "Time Past" and the "Ages to Come" beautifully. You have left out "But NOW". Which is where you actually are. And cannot seem to grasp.

[MarkBsnr]

Septuagint, used by Jews world wide not good enough? Predating the Incarnation of Jesus by 300 years not good enough? Jesus quoting Sirach not good enough? What other wisdom does the master have for us?

Those books were NEVER accepted into the Jewish canon. The Upanishads were written way before Jesus came to earth, too, do they count? Show me where Jesus ever quoted any Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical using the words "It is written".

Jesus quoting the Deuterocanonicals not good enough for you either? Hmm.

The Septuagint is a Jewish Bible and they were in the Jewish canon. There were several different versions available for the various Jewish sects. The deuterocanonicals were not removed until the anti Christian Council of Jamnia which was convened in order to separate Judaism from Christianity.

[metmom]

The CCC is *anti- Catholic*????

Who knew?

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PU.HTM

Can. 209 §1. The Christian faithful, even in their own manner of acting, are always obliged to maintain communion with the Church.

§2. With great diligence they are to fulfill the duties which they owe to the universal Church and the particular church to which they belong according to the prescripts of the law.

Can. 210 All the Christian faithful must direct their efforts to lead a holy life and to promote the growth of the Church and its continual sanctification, according to their own condition.

Can. 211 All the Christian faithful have the duty and right to work so that the divine message of salvation more and more reaches all people in every age and in every land.

Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

Can. 222 §1. The Christian faithful are obliged to assist with the needs of the Church so that the Church has what is necessary for divine worship, for the works of the apostolate and of charity, and for the decent support of ministers.

§2. They are also obliged to promote social justice and, mindful of the precept of the Lord, to assist the poor from their own resources.

[presently no screen name]

Catholic propaganda! If it were *It was founded by Jesus Christ Himself they would not have man made teachings/doctrine - and God's Word would be THE FINAL AUTHORITY.

with Biblical references, no less!

Yeah - ain't that a kicker since their traditions voids God's Word.

[MarkBsnr]

Using Wiki as a source for defining sola? Tsk, tsk.

Your definition leaves a perfect ‘out’, which amounts to the permission of the individual to come up with anything that he wants, as long as he can find anything ‘indirectly’ in Scripture.

So much for remaining true to the teachings of Paul and the other bishops.

[Natural Law]

"Now, would you care to address this subject,"

That is not a call to "blind obedience". The Church is very clear on its definition of obedience as I posted earlier (post #3309). You would have us believe that obedience means coerced subservience when in fact the Church asks for an eyes open acceptance of the Truth.

The irony is that it is you and much of Protestantism that demands blind obedience under the threat of hell, fire and brimstone and it is the Church that teaches that love conquers all.

"To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” - Mark 12:33

[MarkBsnr]

This begs the question as to which canon is being discussed or if there is a suggestion that there was only a single Jewish canon. There were at least four; the Pharisee Canon, the Sadducee Canon, the Essene Canon and the Septuagint Canon embraced by the Jews living outside of Palestine. Note: There were more Jews living outside of Palestine in the first century than in it.

Come on, now. You are being factual and correct, and stuff.

[Natural Law]

"It is not love to help someone to go comfortably on their way to hell in error while quoting Bible verses to them as platitudes."

No way sister. That is EXACTLY the excuse used by most domestic abusers, those who beat spouses and children because they "love" them and were compelled to physically act for their own good. It is always the victim's fault for their actions.

You can't blame un-Christian behavior on God. You mentioned the love as a "fruit of the Spirit" in an earlier post, but have neglected to mention the other eight. Your harsh version of Christianity seems void of Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-control. If you have to tell people that you are Christian and people cannot discern that you are Christian from your actions and life alone you are a poser only. I tell you this out of love, stop being a keyboard Christian and come out in to the real world and answer the call to Beatitude for your sake and His.

[daniel1212]

I provided some examples of requirements of obedience, but the reality is that there is conflict here, as in other things, and in which RCs interpret Rome differently, with some exhorting implicit obedience to all Rome teaches, and others restricting it to infallibly defined dogma, which is officially required, provided you can know the difference. And even then Ratzinger taught, "Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one's own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority. “ (Pope Benedict XVI [then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger], Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II, ed. Vorgrimler, 1968, on Gaudium et spes, part 1,chapter 1.).

As regards changes, there can be validity to such, in which what was forbidden in past times might now be allowed now due to different circumstances, and there is a difference btwn dogma and church law (thus clerical celibacy could be changed, though RCs defend it as if it were immutable), and teachings of the supreme "infallible" magisterium versus the Ordinary (which some also divide into a General magisterium as well), into which the majority of RC teachings and practices are held to fall into, and in which some degree of dissent as well as interpretive disagreement is allowed, (which involves some interpretation as to which category teachings belong to, and how much one may dissent), in which area even RCAs disagree with each other . And with just the "Bulls" of the popes from 540 to 1857 behind said to fill 41 volumes, there is much to reconcile. In addition is the great liberty the RC has to interpret the Bible to support Rome, as few specific verses are held to have been infallible defined, although how many if any is a matter of some interpretation, as is things like whether the stamp protects from error.

But in many thing Rome has autocratically redefined what she meant, and is attacked from those in the Catholic sedevacantist schism, being her most acerbic critics outside some in Protestantism, even going so far as to deny the validity of Vatican 2. http://www.the-pope.com/wvat2tec.html

[Natural Law]

"But in many thing Rome has autocratically redefined what she meant,"

That is a mischaracterization at best. The Church has defined itself based upon its its interpretation of the Revealed Word and those who AGREE are in Communion with it and each other. It is completely voluntary as is evidenced by the many who proudly profess to not be in communion with it. To blindly (reluctantly, fearfully, and unwillingly) obey does not put one in Communion.

Those of us who are in communion have happily (blessed) chosen to be because we recognize the Church to represent the Truth.

So, why do so many of you obsess over the Church when your greatest indictment of Her is that Catholics love Christ imperfectly by your standards? With 2/3 of the world population still non-Christian wouldn't you better serve God fishing for souls in that lake and not sewing discord with Catholics?

[MarkBsnr]

I’d be embarrassed to even admit that it’s part of the teaching of an organization I admitted being associated with. I found there are some very good reason those books were not included in scripture. The CC only includes them because they also talk about praying to dead, dead praying for them and other doctrines the CC uses to control the masses. Then there are all the historical errors.

Jesus used them. I'm not sure that He is liable to historical errors.