Posted on 10/28/2011 6:59:29 AM PDT by markomalley
October 31 is only three days away. For Protestants, it is Reformation Day, the date in 1517 on which Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to that famous door in Wittenberg, Germany. Since I returned to the Catholic Church in April 2007, each year the commemoration has become a time of reflection about my own journey and the puzzles that led me back to the Church of my youth.
One of those puzzles was the relationship between the Church, Tradition, and the canon of Scripture. As a Protestant, I claimed to reject the normative role that Tradition plays in the development of Christian doctrine. But at times I seemed to rely on it. For example, on the content of the biblical canon – whether the Old Testament includes the deuterocanonical books (or “Apocrypha”), as the Catholic Church holds and Protestantism rejects. I would appeal to the exclusion of these books as canonical by the Jewish Council of Jamnia (A.D. 90-100) as well as doubts about those books raised by St. Jerome, translator of the Latin Vulgate, and a few other Church Fathers.
My reasoning, however, was extra-biblical. For it appealed to an authoritative leadership that has the power to recognize and certify books as canonical that were subsequently recognized as such by certain Fathers embedded in a tradition that, as a Protestant, I thought more authoritative than the tradition that certified what has come to be known as the Catholic canon. This latter tradition, rejected by Protestants, includes St. Augustine as well as the Council of Hippo (A.D. 393), the Third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397), the Fourth Council of Carthage (A.D. 419), and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1441).
But if, according to my Protestant self, a Jewish council and a few Church Fathers are the grounds on which I am justified in saying what is the proper scope of the Old Testament canon, then what of New Testament canonicity? So, ironically, given my Protestant understanding of ecclesiology, then the sort of authority and tradition that apparently provided me warrant to exclude the deuterocanonical books from Scripture – binding magisterial authority with historical continuity – is missing from the Church during the development of New Testament canonicity.
The Catholic Church, on the other hand, maintains that this magisterial authority was in fact present in the early Church and thus gave its leadership the power to recognize and fix the New Testament canon. So, ironically, the Protestant case for a deuterocanonical-absent Old Testament canon depends on Catholic intuitions about a tradition of magisterial authority.
This led to two other tensions. First, in defense of the Protestant Old Testament canon, I argued, as noted above, that although some of the Church’s leading theologians and several regional councils accepted what is known today as the Catholic canon, others disagreed and embraced what is known today as the Protestant canon. It soon became clear to me that this did not help my case, since by employing this argumentative strategy, I conceded the central point of Catholicism: the Church is logically prior to the Scriptures. That is, if the Church, until the Council of Florence’s ecumenical declaration in 1441, can live with a certain degree of ambiguity about the content of the Old Testament canon, that means that sola scriptura was never a fundamental principle of authentic Christianity.
After all, if Scripture alone applies to the Bible as a whole, then we cannot know to which particular collection of books this principle applies until the Bible’s content is settled. Thus, to concede an officially unsettled canon for Christianity’s first fifteen centuries seems to make the Catholic argument that sola scriptura was a sixteenth-century invention and, therefore, not an essential Christian doctrine.
Second, because the list of canonical books is itself not found in Scripture – as one can find the Ten Commandments or the names of Christ’s apostles – any such list, whether Protestant or Catholic, would be an item of extra-biblical theological knowledge. Take, for example, a portion of the revised and expanded Evangelical Theological Society statement of faith suggested (and eventually rejected by the membership) by two ETS members following my return to the Catholic Church. It states that, “this written word of God consists of the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments and is the supreme authority in all matters of belief and behavior.”
But the belief that the Bible consists only of sixty-six books is not a claim of Scripture, since one cannot find the list in it, but a claim about Scripture as a whole. That is, the whole has a property – i.e., “consisting of sixty-six books,” – that is not found in any of the parts. In other words, if the sixty-six books are the supreme authority on matters of belief, and the number of books is a belief, and one cannot find that belief in any of the books, then the belief that Scripture consists of sixty-six particular books is an extra-biblical belief, an item of theological knowledge that is prima facie non-biblical.
For the Catholic, this is not a problem, since the Bible is the book of the Church, and thus there is an organic unity between the fixing of the canon and the development of doctrine and Christian practice.
Although I am forever indebted to my Evangelical brethren for instilling and nurturing in me a deep love of Scripture, it was that love that eventually led me to the Church that had the authority to distinguish Scripture from other things.
ROFL I think only Catholics are fooled by that meme. Let’s look at an example.
Prayer of Pope Pius XII
Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.
That’s worship my Friend.
Seems that Catholics think that pray is not worship.
What is for them I wonder?
And? Judges 24 is not about Mary either.
Yep, especially everything denounced by God in scripture.
Well, let's see. If you renounce everything pagan, then you must have gotten rid of all crosses. No wedding ring, right? No praying in groups. Of course you do not sing hymns. And so on, right?
There is your error. They only understand that we are still in this carnal flesh and will fail at times. The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Protestants stand secure in the promises of Christ.
We understand the difference between wholeheartedly believing in and trusting in God, and self-declaration of one's own salvation.
LOL Actually Protestants accept the words of God through scripture.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)
You see, it’s not “self declare” it’s simply accepting the words of God in scripture. That’s something Catholics don’t seem to do much of.
Doublespeak.
He made sure that we really understood it so we'd really see our need for Him and realize all the more that we COULDN'T do it. He didn't do that to put us under more bondage than ever.
Of course, how did I miss it? Jesus told us to do as He says and that He is only our friend if we do as He says. That is the magic of the Reformation - they introduced the idea that Jesus was just kidding.
Huh? There is no Judges 24. Oy!
As compared to God who is subordinate to Mary?
I'm not the one posting from a human being (Paul) and trying to trump the words of Almighty God in the Gospels.
As in He can't refuse any request of hers so that's why Catholics pray to Mary?
Anyone praying for me to God is better than them not praying.
No, no elephants in the house/room at all. Here's a question that may clear the room. How many Roman Catholics actually bow their knee and confess with their tongues that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father? Kneeling in church hardly equates to the same thing in God's view. I'm surprised this truth hasn't seemed to sink in yet.
Will the Gloria do?
Glory to God in the highest and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father, we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father, Lord God, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us; you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit in the glory of God the Father. Amen.
Here is the truth of the matter.
Catholics believe that it is all about God, not all about us. We seek God, not like minded groups who come up all manner of novel theologies.
God never expected his children to remain in apostate churches. In fact, he said to come out of them, to be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers. It is a blessing to have the Scriptures as our guide. They are a light unto our path.
I accept that the Church has the authority granted it by Jesus Christ. I do not accept the authority of free thinkers who use extracts of Scripture in order to prooftext their current beliefs.
Do Catholics not understand what is written and sanctioned in scripture?
Singing hymns is not only sanctioned but encouraged.
Acts 16:25 But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns of praise to God, and the prisoners were listening to them;
Ephesians 5:19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
As is praying in groups.
2 Chronicles 6:12 And he stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands: 13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven.
Acts 12:12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.
Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
And what isn’t?
Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jeremiah 44:19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
Jeremiah 44:22 So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.
Well, let me repeat: This "true Church of Christ", I'm happy to say, consists of all those who hold to the same faith of those early believers. We are all part of that universal body of Jesus Christ.
If your understanding of Christ is fundamentally flawed, how can you belong to the Church?
This "knockoff facsimile that only remotely resembles the Church that Christ created and the Holy Spirit commissioned at Pentecost" could very well define the Roman Catholic Church as this knock-off.
Only to a true antiCatholic.
Whereas the spiritual body of Christ, the called-out assembly created at Pentecost, more closely defines those assemblies that adhere to the same doctrines taught in Holy Scripture - those letters that God inspired in the writers of the New Testament to ensure the truths Christ taught them both before AND after he was seated in Heaven are and forever will be our authority.
The NT churches were definitely under the authority of the bishops. The free thinkers were either brought into line or else rejected.
What today calls itself THE Church, has been shown to no longer represent that universal spiritual whole BUT God has always kept a "remnant" for himself that have not bowed the knee to false gods.
Hands up all those who claim membership in this remnant for no other reason than that they claim it.
This is what has always set apart those who faithfully follow the true path of righteousness found in Jesus Christ.
Now you are claiming righteousness? Jesus calls us to be perfect, yet no one among is perfect.
You just proved catholics have no comprehension when they read. It's ALL about JESUS!
Negative. The true appeal of the Reformation is the development of the doctrines devoted to the image in the mirror. That's what the underlying meaning is on so many posts here.
Just offhand, it looks like it has most of them.
All that navel gazing takes practice, you know.
Jesus actually said considerably more on the subject of divorce than is contained in Matthew 5. Matthew 19 contains a complete prohibition against divorce:
"Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”" Matthew 19:3-6
How many of these who attack the Church actually left the Church to divorce? How many think that the forgiveness they believe they received for that divorce is vacant if they continue to live in a state of adultery with a second spouse?
Do you mean the Deuterocanonicals? The Apocrypha includes the Gospel of Peter, the Apocalypse of Peter etc.
But, how about you share with me what was written on the inscription over Jesus' head on the cross?
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