Posted on 10/26/2011 5:04:31 PM PDT by Gamecock
Here we go again. Joel Osteen is in the news once again, this time for saying that Mormonism is just another form of Christianity. Osteen, pastor of “America’s largest church,” as the media repeat over and over, was speaking to The Washington Times in an interview that covered a variety of issues. It was the quintessential Joel on display.
Speaking to the newspaper on Monday, Osteen said, “I see faith in America at an all-time high.” His comments came just as a major research project detailed a significant loss of vitality in America’s Christian congregations. That loss of vitality can be traced, among other things, to a loss of theological and biblical conviction. Joel, of course, is proof positive that you can build a crowd without building a church. He is not inclined to deal in much theological conviction.
In the interview, he distilled his message in these words: “Part of our core message is that seasons change, and when you believe, if you don’t get bitter, and you don’t get discouraged, you may not change overnight, but you can get peace.”
He also told the newspaper: “People need to be reminded that every day is a gift from God, and bloom where you’re planted and be happy where you are, and to make that choice to get up every day and be grateful.”
That message includes some truth, of course - but it doesn’t even come close to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Hell will be filled with people who bloomed where they were planted.
On Mormonism, Joel said:
“I believe that [Mormons] are Christians . . . . I don’t know if it’s the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with. But you know what, I know Mormons. I hear Mitt Romney - and I’ve never met him - but I hear him say, ‘I believe Jesus is the son of God,’ ‘I believe he’s my savior,’ and that’s one of the core issues.”
“I’m sure there are other issues that we don’t agree on. But you know, I can say that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Catholics don’t all agree on everything. So that would be my take on it.”
Osteen just stated his belief that Mormons are Christians. He then expressed the thought that Mormonism “might not be the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with,” but he affirmed Mormon statements that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is Savior.
Evaluating Osteen’s boyhood understanding of Christianity would be a project unto itself, given the shifting theology of his preacher father, the late John Osteen.
The main point of concern in Joel’s latest comment is the lack of any biblical standard of judgment and the total abdication of theological responsibility. He relegates doctrinal disagreements between Christians and Mormons to the status of theological debates between Protestant denominations and then includes Roman Catholicism. There are plenty of issues there, and the issues are not the same when comparing Baptists to Methodists, on the one hand, and Protestants and Roman Catholics, on the other. Comparing any form of Trinitarian orthodoxy with Mormonism is another class of question altogether.
Joel reminded the paper’s staff that he has never attended seminary. This is true, of course, but there are thousands of preachers who never had the opportunity to attend seminary who have a sufficient grasp of and commitment to biblical truth that would prevent such carelessness.
By now, it is clear that Joel Osteen’s carelessness is deliberate and calculated. This is not the first time that he has encountered the question of Mormonism. Back in 2007, he told Chris Wallace of FOX News that Mormons are indeed Christians:
“Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his savior, and that’s what I believe, so, you know, I’m not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are.”
The little details of it? Mormonism does not differ from historic biblical Christianity in only the “little details,” and a faithful Mormon would be the first to point this out. Mormonism begins with a plurality of gods, not with the monotheism of the Bible. Jesus Christ is an exalted man - not the incarnate Word. The list of categorical doctrinal differences continues throughout the entire belief system.
The very essence of Mormonism is the claim that historic Christianity is fundamentally in error, and that true Christianity did not exist on earth from the time of the Apostles until Joseph Smith. Mormonism can hardly be charged with hiding their movement’s teachings - the Book of Mormon and the other fundamental texts of the Latter Day Saints are published in plain sight.
In a remarkable exchange with Chris Wallace, Osteen muddied the waters further:
WALLACE: So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?
OSTEEN: I probably don’t get hung up in them because I haven’t really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don’t know.
Here we face a fundamental dilemma. When Joel Osteen hears a summary of Mormon belief that mentions God assuming “the shape of a man,” does he lack the theological discernment to hear how that differs from biblical Christianity, or does it not concern him? In other words, does Joel not know, or does Joel not care?
In the end, we have to conclude that he does not care enough to know, and that is the greater tragedy for a Christian minister. He doesn’t “get hung up” on doctrinal issues, nor has he “really studied them or thought about them.” His own words indict him.
Evangelical Christians are going to face many questions in this season, and the question of Mormonism is now front and center. It will call upon all of us to do what Joel Osteen proudly has not done - to study and think about these issues. In this political moment, we will have to think carefully and act judiciously without confusing the theological questions. We will need the full wealth of Christian conviction.
We will also need deep doctrinal discernment mixed with urgent spiritual concern. The Latter Day Saints include some of the most wonderful and kind people we will ever meet. They put a great emphasis on character and on the moral values of our common concern. They talk freely and passionately about their own beliefs, including their beliefs concerning Jesus Christ. Furthermore, they put action behind their commitments, sending their young people on mission and fueling a worldwide movement that remains one of the fastest-growing on the planet.
But their beliefs concerning Jesus Christ are not those of historic Christianity, and their understanding of salvation differs radically from the message of the New Testament. It is the responsibility of every Christian - and most certainly every Christian minister - to know this.
Joel Osteen told The Washington Times that he is constantly “looking for new ways to influence the culture.” Our culture admires those with low theological commitment and high emphasis on attitude. In Joel Osteen’s case, it is the secular culture that has influenced the minister, and not the minister that is influencing the culture.
When push comes to shove, Osteen is nothing more than a modern day Joseph Smith.
I attempted to listen to one of Osteen’s broadcasts once, and I got through about a half of a sermon.
I did not hear Father/Son/Holy Spirit mentioned even once, and moreover, I just didn’t follow it. I’m not a dumb man, and maybe Osteen was off that day or something, but I just couldn’t follow it. It was built around motivational themes similar to what one might get at a Zig Ziglar convention, but there was no thread holding it together that day, so it came across as a series of quotes and platitudes held together by the previous series of the same.
FWIW, that particular day Osteen didn’t hit a single....much less a home run. As a public speaker, I know that happens, but couple that with the no mention of the divine, and I wondered what was going on.
Milt Rominy (rhymes with hominy, the huskless corn product) is a High Priest in MormonISM and that religion denies the efficacy of Christ's blood for salvation. The flying Inmans address the souls and you address the buildings for attendance. Says a lot about your spiritual state. Are you a Mormon?
In context, it looks like he's answering Wallace's questions about the validity of Mormonism. Osteen is essentially saying that he hasn't studied Mormonism so he can't comment. Seems fair to me. Not studying Mormonism is not anathema to the Christian faith.
Cult identification and analysis is not what Joel is anointed to do. He is anointed, however, to help God's people break strongholds and victoriously move into the inheritance God has for them. Heb. 3:11-4:11. He's pushing back the gates of Hell and Satan doesn't like it one bit.
I'll be along side of Joel (at least in the spirit of imparting eternal faith, hope, and charity in the power of the Spirit and the grace of the Lord Jesus) if and when God calls me to do so.
Well, if you read parts of the Bible, you may not read Father/Son/Holy Spirit either (like Esther for instance). Try listening to an entire sermon sometime, including the weekly prayer call and alter call and comments before and after worship. You'll hear a lot about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and good Bible-based teaching.
FYI, I used to think he was a motivational speaker who smiled all the time. But one day, it was like invisible hands from Heaven took Joel and Victoria and planted them right in front of me and said, "Here, these are for you - listen to them." Since then I've plugged into Lakewood Church and read all his books and my life has changed for the better. You're talking to a committed, spirit-filled, fairly mature Christian who's been a believer for 40+ years - no babe in Christ.
Hey, Osteen's not for everyone, God puts different people in different places according to His will. But if you're ever interested, try reading one one his books sometime - ask the Lord to wipe the slate clean of preconceptions and just receive if He has anything for you. I think you'll be in for a surprise.
Hysteria? Are you going to condemn the hysterics of the 52,000 mormon missionaries whose "hysteria" leads them to sacrifice two full years of their lives going out daily and telling Christians that their Christian faith is bogus and the only way to salvation is to become a mormon and take part in their arcane rituals in the temples?
That is a much more fitting way of describing "hysteria" than the efforts of The Flying Inmans who provide the truth of mormonism on FR. You label the posts of a handful of FReepers "hysteria" while ignoring the ongoing attempt for more than a century of the entire membership of the mormon church to baptize every soul (either alive or dead) into their polytheistic sect.
The "hysteric" anti Christianity I see in your posts reminds me very strongly of a banned mormon, one whose claim was that Joseph Smith was an actual "Apostle" of Jesus.
Sorry, meant to ping you to #46.
Um, that is a lack of spiritual discernment.
Do you REALLY KNOW what (who) Mormons teach Jesus was?
They teach that God the Father came to earth and had sex with Mary to produce Jesus. No virgin birth, no God Incarnate. That Jesus is a separate created being.
To make matters worse, Lucifer (Satan) is another of God the Father’s spirit offspring from another one of his spirit wives, making Satan the half-brother of Jesus. Now I couldn’t believe that when I heard it so I asked a Mormon I worked with face to face if that’s what they believed and he told me *Yes*.
So Mormon’s believe that Jesus was a created being, NOT God come in the flesh, but rather the half-brother of Satan.
Now, I don’t care if that entity is named Jesus or not, that Jesus is NOT going to save you. It’s the wrong one and they know it. Read Galatians sometime about the preaching of false gospels and false Christ’s.
Kind of makes you wonder what the noobs previous screen name was.
You've flunked Basic New Testament Overseer 101. (You only got HALF of it right)
What does the apostle Paul say? What did he tell Titus?
7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. [apostle Paul to Titus, vv. 7-9 of chapter 1]
V. 9 says that pastors/overseers are to hold firmly to the message...why? To encourage others, yes; but also to "refute those who oppose it." And even on the "encouragement" side, how does Paul tell Titus to do that? Answer? "by sound doctrine".
Perhaps you've got too much "feel-good" non-denominationalism blood runnin' thru your veins.
Exactly.
I think you guys have a screwy idea of what it means to be a Christian. If a Mormon is Saved by Grace through Jesus Christ, they are a Christian. Just because the church has some wacky beliefs doesn’t mean every member walks in locked step with that belief. A quick perusal of Anti-Mormon sites shows that a lot of members don’t exactly toe the line even though they still attend church.
Ya’ll starting to get that Pharisee thing down to a science.
Well said!
Galatians 1: 6-9
No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
Just one of many warnings in the Bible. You should "peruse" it some time.
Mormon is as Mormon does.
I'm in his flock and I'm not left to the wolves. Every Sunday he explains how to become a born-again Christian by faith in Jesus Christ
I'm sorry to hear that you are of the gullible masses. Nonetheless, how can the student know more than his teacher? And from everything I have heard Joel yap about, one thing is certain - Joel Osteen doesn't know the Gospel.
If you are of his flock you are not competent to discuss the Gospel.
Hysteria? Are you going to condemn the hysterics of the 52,000 mormon missionaries whose "hysteria" leads them to sacrifice two full years of their lives going out daily and telling Christians that their Christian faith is bogus and the only way to salvation is to become a mormon and take part in their arcane rituals in the temples?
Oh if that is the criteria for truth, then what is giving up one's life for their belief? Two years or your entire life? So according to your logic those who followed Jim Jones, or any jihadist who self-detonates must have the real truth.
Big deal if someone rides a bicycle for two years - what about a man who devotes many years in seminary to get his ThD? Will two years of door-to-door sales equip a man with doctrinal truth better than years of seminary study?
If a Mormon is Saved by Grace through Jesus Christ, they are a Christian.
Oh, I see. So you scratch out 1 Corinthians 2:14 regarding the Paraclete as being the only key to understanding the Gospel. And since the Paraclete is the one that leads a person to knowledge of our LORD, you must also categorically reject 1 Cor 14:23 where God is not the author of confusion concerning Truth.
Ya’ll starting to get that Pharisee thing down to a science.
In Acts 23:6 and 26:5 Paul admits to being a strict Pharisee so in view of that I suppose you also reject Galatians 3 where Paul says there is only one Gospel taught by the Spirit - because Paul was a Pharisee.
(sigh)
Joel Osteen told Larry king that.”he wasn’t prepared to say, that Jesus was the only way to Heaven.
Saul was a Pharisee among Pharisees, until the road to Damascus experience.
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