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To: Hieronymus; djrakowski
"If you decide to say no to Christ, you have resisted grace. Whether it is real grace or not, I’ll leave it up to the Calvinists and God to settle. If you say yes and continue to cooperate with grace, you will be saved—the sacraments are a part of the cooperation with grace. Semi-pelegian holds that after an initial cooperation with grace (sinner’s prayer anyone?) no additional grace is needed. I don’t see how stating that there is a need for cooperating with á continual stream of grace’ can be labelled semi-pelegian unless one is ignorant of what the term means."

So much error, so little time. If I say "yes", then you have not determined whether that "yes" was unaided or compelled by God. If it was compelled by God, but you could not "feel" it, has it then not occurred? And, notice, here comes the actions of men to secure the salvation (sacraments). Grace is supplanted by "religion" in Rome.

I am well aware of what Pelagian & Augustine argued over those many centuries ago. I am also aware that semi-pelagianism was considered the unaided will determining for itself whether grace was to be accepted or rejected. This used to be considered heresy even by the Roman organization...until it became apparent what it meant to man's control. May want to revisit the argument to catch the subtleties.

And, in John 16 there is simply no part of the matter Jesus is describing that rests upon a man. But, then that would require a knee bent to the Scriptures...not Rome. The beauty of the Gospel is that no one, no organization, no group, no ceremony, no man's will may supply the work of the Holy Spirit blowing His saving wind wherever He wishes it to go. And, no apostle ever joined a group after it began to blow. Please read the text. Rome just showed up late for the party (250 years late?) and beat others into submission...for some 1250 years.

39 posted on 10/10/2011 4:34:07 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
I am also aware that semi-pelagianism was considered the unaided will determining for itself whether grace was to be accepted or rejected.

Then you're "aware" of a falsehood. Semi-pelagianism was the idea that the initiative in the ordo salutis (sometimes or always) belonged to man, unaided by grace.

That is, that the natural man could have, by himself, a "good thought" or "good movement," and from that could seek God such that God would reach down and offer him justification.

Against this, the Catholic Church taught at II Orange that nobody could seek God, repent, or believe as he ought apart from grace. Even coöperating with grace requires grace to enable the co&oum;peration. (We are fully capable of resisting grace on our own.)

There was never any question that the unaided will could, by itself, reject grace, nor that the human will, aided by grace, could actively accept subsequent graces. This is why St. Augustine could say:

But God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that god could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.
-- Sermon 169, paragraph 13 Augustine was no semi-Pelagian.

Your own posts aren't even consistent with full determinism. "Depart from her, if you can"? If full determinism is true, then all "can" rests with God, and none with me. For you to tell Catholics, "Depart from her, if you can" makes as much sense as me opening a cupboard in my kitchen and telling the dishes "Jump down from there, if you can".

That your own posts contradict your theology may be a telling sign that it doesn't make sense.

I have no idea how you get full determinism out of John 16, but I know exactly how to get Catholicism out of Romans 6:23:

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus Our Lord.
Wages are something you earn. You are fully capable of earning eternal death by your sins, and are fully capable of committing those sins. God doesn't compel it at all, for anyone. Salvation, OTOH, is an utterly free gift.
45 posted on 10/10/2011 5:00:28 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Dutchboy88

The sacraments the action of men???? The Church claims that they are the actions of Christ—who yes, did become man—so thay are the actions of one who became man, but not any random man.

Free will and divine providence are both to be held—how they work together is a mystery, but they are both to be held, just as God is three and God is one, and Christ is true God and true man. All are mysteries. Some hold only one of a pair while denying the other, and hold that one can only hold one or the other of the pair. I hold all by faith—and do not assert that I reject those aspects that you do hold merely because I hold aspects that you reject because you, for whatever reasons, believe that both cannot be held. God is three and God is one; Christ is true God and true man; God reigns supreme and governs all and while being the supreme governor of all allows man to cooperate in His Providence. Semi-Pelegian—hogwash. I am no more a Semi-Pelegian than I am an Arian.


46 posted on 10/10/2011 5:20:19 PM PDT by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: Dutchboy88
Here's a short course on the Sacraments, instituted by Christ to give grace.

The Sacraments: The Life of The Christian

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Sacraments: The Life of The Christian
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Sacraments: Opportunities of Grace
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Baptism: Initiation and Regeneration
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Sacraments: Opportunities of Grace: Reconciliation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: Confirmation
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: The Eucharist: The Lord's Supper
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: Healing/Anointing of the Sick
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: Matrimony
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: [Holy] Orders

 

The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, The Sacraments
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, Baptism
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, Confirmation
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace: The Eucharist
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, Penance

The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, Anointing of the Sick
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace, Holy Orders

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 19: The Seven Sacraments
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 20: The Sacrament of Baptism

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 21: The Sacrament of Confirmation
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 22: The Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist (Holy Communion)
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 23: The Sacrifice of the Mass
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 24: The Sacrament of Penance (Confession)
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 25: How to go to Confession

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 27: The Sacrament of Extreme Unction
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 28: The Sacrament of Holy Orders (Priesthood)
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 29: The Nature of Marriage
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 31: The Sacrament of Matrimony
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 32: How to have a Happy Marriage


49 posted on 10/10/2011 5:33:06 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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