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Posted on 09/02/2011 9:07:47 AM PDT by marshmallow
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Since the dishonesty is still running rampant, let us look at the Catechism fully. I realize that in the textproofing world of the gods in the mirror that such honesty is rare, I will treat you to it and see how you react.
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
The Protestants are referred to in Paragraph 838 in the Christian section. The Muslims are referred to in Paragraph 841 - after the Jews (839 and 840). I really don't know if you guys are idiots or dishonest or what. That is the Catechism, honestly and truly.
You guys need to learn some of both.
Salvation by works makes God man debtor..
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Mark I can not do one thing to commend me to a Holy Righteous God.. even my best efforts are sin before Him.
He is only pleases by His work ...How proud to think that in anyway we can deserve or keep that which was paid by Christ ...
There is no salvation in imagined sacraments.. or in a prophet pope or in man made tradition...
There is no salvation in law keeping..one does not go to hell because he sins..he goes because he does not have a Savior..
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
We will all stand naked before God on our judgement day.. with nothing in our hands to bring..
What's with you guys' eyes? Are we saved by grace, or not? Is salvation a gift of God, or do we "remain out of sin" to earn it?
Are you sure it is "us" who have missed the message of grace?
Don’t give up your day job. ;o)
Now who ate a bowl of YOPIOS for dinner?
We see the Good News through the pinnacle of God's revelation - the Gospels. We do not view the Gospels through Paul. That is what is 'wrong' with us.
Are we saved by grace, or not?
We are.
Is salvation a gift of God,
Yes
or do we "remain out of sin" to earn it?
Missed it by that much. You can refuse it and that is far different than your continuing claim of what the Church believes. The Prodigal Son, e.g. The verses from Matthew that I just posted, e.g.
Is there something about the phrase “in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; “ that is really too difficult to understand?
First does mean first, you know. Before others. Not equal.
It wasn't Judith Anne who introduced the "days to live drama" into the dialog nor relied upon it in several threads to blunt criticism. If aid freeper did not want it discussed or referred to they should have kept it private.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Can you show me where the Catechism is as gracious and inclusive towards Protestants? Can you show me where the Catechism accepts that Protestants worship, adore and profess to hold faith in the same God as they?
Lastly, do you accept that the Muslim god, Allah, is the same God that revealed himself to Abraham, that was worshiped by the Jews and that we Christians believe is the one, true, only God and Creator?
No wonder you guys get the Bible so wrong. It is the way in which you read things.
The Protestants are referred to in 838 in the Christian section.
The Jews are referred to in 839 and 840 in the non Christian section, but as first of those who God contacted.
Of the remaining non Christians, the Muslims are then first because they worship the One God with a very deficient understanding of him (Islam is either a Christian or Jewish (or both) heresy). Then come all the rest of mankind, since they have no understanding of God.
I'm sorry if it is so difficult. But that's what happens if you are used to making it all up as you go along, and aren't used to things actually meaning what they mean.
Wrong, Mark. That is NOT what the Scripture verse said. If we DENY Him, He will deny us. If we are unfaithful, He remains faithful.
2 Timothy 2:11 The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; 13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.
And there is a huge difference between being unfaithful and denying Him. We can be unfaithful when we fall into sin, but that is not outright denying Him. It's a difference Catholics don't seem to recognize.
I'm glad that I don't serve a God who is so capricious as to award salvation based on performance to humans He knows are so fallible. Knowing that I am His child and secure in that position makes me want to serve and obey Him out of gratitude, not fear of the consequences, as I did when I was a Catholic.
Oh Lord, how many times do I have to explain it.
Paragraph 838 refers to Protestants. This is in the Christian section.
Paragraph 839 and 840 refer to the Jews who received God’s revelation first.
Paragraph 841 puts the Muslims first amongst all the rest because they have a very imperfect understanding of God, being a Jewish or Christian (or both) heresy. They are in the non Christian section.
Here’s a hint: look at the sections. Words mean something. They don’t mean them to mean what you want them to mean when you want them to mean it. That is the difference between Catholicism and you guys.
Muslims trace their roots back to Abraham. Just as we and the Jews do. We are the only 3 who do. Bone up on history, it might prove informative.
And here we are once again. I quote Jesus to you and you riposte with snippets of Paul.
However, the key here is in verse 12: If we endure, we will also live with Him. The corollary is that if we do not endure, we will not live with Him ie: we will lose our salvation. God is always faithful. To us. But if we refuse Him, then we take it upon ourselves to perish.
You see, Paul is supposed to reflect Jesus, who is the Light of the World. Paul is not the successor of Christ, as so many here make him out to be. Paul was a bishop of the Church and its greatest evangelizer. But he is a creation of God, not vice versa.
I have no desire to make this another Saturday nite in the War Zone with Catholics VS Protestants. Perhaps you enjoy this as an opportunity to tell us how "dishonest" we are or that we are all "idiots" because we don't genuflect to your Pope. I do not wish to waste a good weekend night on internet "wrasslin". Entertain the thought that perhaps y'all need to bone up on history. If you seriously think that Allah is in any way the same as Jehovah, you have not apparently bothered to read the Koran's description of him. Here's a hint: Allah is not the Creator. Allah is not a Trinity. Jesus is NOT the son of Allah.
There's more than enough to convince an honest Christian that we do NOT worship the same God as Muslims. I know it must be difficult to accept that your very own Catechism, written by your magesterium, can contain errors. Those who desire truth will be rewarded by the source and giver of all truth. Those who blindly follow a tradition do not have the same confidence.
It’s the same old, same old.
It doesn’t really mean what it says. It means what we say it means.
This is deflecting the issue. The issue is that you guys are all defending each other while trying to make the rather plainly written Catechism seem like it means other than it means. If I hear a recant, then I will take it as a civilized Christian.
If you seriously think that Allah is in any way the same as Jehovah, you have not apparently bothered to read the Koran's description of him. Here's a hint: Allah is not the Creator. Allah is not a Trinity. Jesus is NOT the son of Allah.
I have read the Koran and have a copy. Here's an even bigger hint: the Jewish OT God is not a Trinity either. He is monotheistic in the exact sense, as is Allah. Islam treats Jesus as holy. Judaism does not.
There's more than enough to convince an honest Christian that we do NOT worship the same God as Muslims.
Perhaps you do not realize just how far Christians have taken OT Scripture in meaning from the original Jewish meaning. We do not know if the Council of Jamnia actually existed, but if it didn't, then there certainly was an equivalent. Christianity departs from Judaism to the same degree that Joseph Smith and the LDS departed from Christianity. If you don't believe me, there are plenty of Jews on FR. Ask them. Start a thread and ask for information.
I know it must be difficult to accept that your very own Catechism, written by your magesterium, can contain errors. Those who desire truth will be rewarded by the source and giver of all truth. Those who blindly follow a tradition do not have the same confidence.
We all have the choice. We can follow the traditions of Christ as given to us by the Apostles and their successors. Or we can follow the tradition of the god in the mirror. Your choice and mine. To be made individually.
Please leave with this thought. I do not say that the Islamic Allah is the same as Jehovah or the Christian God the Father. I will say that semi pagan Mohammedans do trace their religious roots back to Abraham. As do we. Nobody else does. We say that they have a glimpse of God and worship Him very imperfectly, as opposed to, say, the Bushmen of the Kalahari, or the Marxists, or ...
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.
When you decided that Catholicism didn't have the right feeling for you, didn't sit well with your digestion and didn't suit your wardrobe, and went shopping for your own personal God, what characteristics were most important for you? What were the standards that the God that you chose had to have? What God did you create?
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