Posted on 08/27/2011 2:14:11 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
Interesting point of view. I would say otherwise.
Calvinists claim that God has a list of special, pre-selected people who will be given eternal life and anyone not on the list is doomed to hell with no say so. There is not one verse of Scripture to validate that.
Does God have a “list”? Probably not, but He does know who will accept him and who will not, therefore, God DOES know who will perish and who Jesus died for.
That's true, and nowhere in Scripture do the words "elect", or "election", or "chosen" refer to eternal life.
Will there be “universal” salvation? No, otherwise Jesus would have said something along the lines of “Don’t worry, I’ve got everything covered.” Instead, Jesus said that he knew every person he died for.
The fact that Jesus knows who will accept Him and who will not does not mean that He makes the decision for people nor does it mean that "chosen" and "election" refer to those who have been "predetermined" for salvation. Jesus also knew 2000 years ago what events would transpire in the world before His return and included that knowledge in Scripture so that we would know what season we were in when those events began to happen. Jesus is God which means He knows past, present, and future. Just because He knows the decisions someone will make does not mean He makes the decisions for them.
Jesus made the sacrifice, and it is up to each individual to accept that sacrifice as payment for sin.
Here is another thing I find interesting. You post a hit piece on Calvinism, and when one shows up to talk about it, you shut up.
Please answer these questions: Does God know who will enter the kingdome of heaven? When did he know? Did Jesus die for everybody, or did he die for only those he knew would be given to him by his Father? Will everybody be in heaven, or will some perish in the lake of fire? Does God know who will die in the lake of fire?
Let’s talk about your answers to these questions. You may use scripture to bolster your arguement, I know I will.
Oh, you believe in “free will”. How wonderful for you that you were smart enough to choose the winning side.
Unfortunately, the Bible doesn’t say YOU get to choose. God chooses.
***Calvinists claim that God has a list of special, pre-selected people who will be given eternal life and anyone not on the list is doomed to hell with no say so. ***
See, there ya go, distorting and making claims with no knowledge.
God “selected, elected, preordained, predetermined, chose, however you want to say it” people from his creation that he wanted with him in heaven. He chose, we had nothing to do with it. All of these words have a similar meaning, and to say that one of these words “elect”, doesn’t mean savation... well, you can make that claim. But when God says that he will gather “HIS” elect from the four corners of the heavens (Matthew 24) I take it to mean that He elected, He chose, He predetermined, not man.
All religious movements go through this ~ the first rush of having "the truth" and the later "reconsideration" and finally "Oh, hey, it didn't mean exactly that ~ it meant this".
So, predestinarianism actually means "performance specification" not "military specification" (milspec).
Then there's quantum mechanics ~ carries elements of both except when it's bobbing up and down screwing with signal strength and frequency.
***That’s true, and nowhere in Scripture do the words “elect”, or “election”, or “chosen” refer to eternal life. ***
How about Ephesians 1:4-5? Or 2 Thes. 2:13? or even 2 Peter 2:9?
LOL!! When did I shut up? I told you to read the article so that you would have a reference point instead of going by the title. That doesn't fit the definition of "shutting up". And it's interesting that you regard an article which is about the truth of Scripture to be a "hit piece". Very revealing.
Does God know who will enter the kingdome of heaven?
Yep. He is God and knows past, present and future.
When did he know? Did Jesus die for everybody, or did he die for only those he knew would be given to him by his Father?
According to the book He wrote, He died for everyone. Scriptural proofs: Ephesians 2:8, Romans 10:17, Jaes 1:21, Isaiah 1:18, Deuteronomy 30:19 Joshua 24:15, Psalm 119:30, 111, 173, John 1:12 2 Timothy 1:12, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Luke 7:50, Ephesians 2:8, 1 Timothy 4:10, 1 John 2:2, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Timothy 2:4.
Will everybody be in heaven, or will some perish in the lake of fire?
According to Revelation 21:27, only those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life will go to Heaven. According to Luke 16:22-26, two men died, one went to Heaven and one to hell. It's all there in Scripture.
Does God know who will die in the lake of fire?
Of course. He's God and knows past, present and future.
Post the supporting Scriptures.
I think this interpretation linking election with Israel only is in error. Election is not individual, but corporate - we are elect if we are “in Christ”.
All placed in Christ by believing the promise of God are elect.
“To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus...
...4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.”
Lots of good info here:
http://evangelicalarminians.org/taxonomy/term/21
Weeellll, not really. I had a Calvinist on this very forum tell me that God chooses who goes to Heaven and who goes to hell. She said this without providing supporting Scriptures, of course, because there are none. But she definitely stated that Jesus did not die for everyone.
God “selected, elected, preordained, predetermined, chose, however you want to say it” people from his creation that he wanted with him in heaven. He chose, we had nothing to do with it. All of these words have a similar meaning, and to say that one of these words “elect”, doesn’t mean savation... well, you can make that claim. But when God says that he will gather “HIS” elect from the four corners of the heavens (Matthew 24) I take it to mean that He elected, He chose, He predetermined, not man.
Post the supporting Scriptures. Post one verse of Scripture where God uses the word "elect" to refer to eternal life.
***According to the book He wrote, He died for everyone... According to Revelation 21:27, only those whose names are in the Lamb’s Book of Life will go to Heaven. ***
Intersting... according to you, Jesus died for everyone’s sins, but it was ineffectual, because some people died and burn in the lake of fire.
So Jesus’ efforts weren’t enough to save everybody? Or do WE need to participate? Jesus’ sacrifice was not enough, we are the ones who REALLY make it happen by us CHOOSING God, right?
***Of course. He’s God and knows past, present and future.***
Now you got me confused. Then there IS a list. God has it.
This is what the entire OT and Matt. Mark, Luke and John focuses on, Israel and the coming Messiah to set up His Kingdom on Earth whereby Israel would be a Kingdom of Priests. But when they rejected Him and His Messiahship, gentiles were basically without hope.
Until God raised up another apostle, Paul, and gave to him the Dispensation of the Grace of God. Whereby Jews and Gentiles are declared by God equal. Until Israel was blinded and set aside, though, they still had the opportunity to accept Christ and bring in His Kingdom. That is why Paul goes to the Jew first and performs Jewish practices. As long as they had that opportunity, they reigned supreme.
Once the Church the Body of Christ is raptured, God once again starts dealing with the Nation Israel, the middle wall of partition goes back up, and the tribulation will bring about those who will go into the Kingdom. Those who endure to the end. That Kingdom of Priests that God promised them.
Without Paul's Epistles and letters the whole Bible is about prophecy concerning a Nation. Israel. It is only in Paul's writings that we learn that God, during Israel's blindness, has given Gentiles a way to be saved apart from Israel. The Cross. It's called the Mystery Hid in God.
Basically the Bible can be divided into two parts, prophecy and mystery.
Ok, God choses. How about Ephesians 1:4-5? Or 2 Thes. 2:13? or even 2 Peter 2:9?
I just did, in Matthew 24. God gathers HIS elect.
“He chose, we had nothing to do with it.”
Odd. Jesus preached, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1)
Note he did not preach, “Some of you must repent and believe, and others cannot - so let’s find out which is which!”
And we are all called to preach to the unbeliever,and make disciples, because we do not know WHO it is God chose. (Matthew 28)
From the article:
"There remain a number of verses that speak of the elect in the New Testament. In light of all that we have studied we can confidently know that they have nothing to do with the Calvinistic idea of predestined to salvation or damnation. Furthermore, in almost all of the cases, understanding them to be a reference to the Jews, God’s chosen people, is warranted. Let’s briefly consider those remaining. When Jesus spoke of God avenging “His own elect who cry out day and night to Him,” (Luke 18:7) He was talking about the Jews. “Rufus, chosen in the Lord,” (Rom 16:13) may be speaking of him being Jewish. This would make the most sense given that of the many other (obviously) believing brothers and sisters in the chapter, only Rufus is called elect. Why would Paul refer to only him as being elect, if the Calvinistic definition of election were true? Were the others not also heirs of eternal life? Understanding that elect/election is not salvation and is generally a reference to the Jews the passage makes complete sense. It must be noted that Priscilla and Aquila, from Rome, were also Jewish and yet were not called elect. Could it be that because Paul had nothing else to say about Rufus that he simply stated that he was chosen/elect in the Lord? Ephesians 1:4 ought to be viewed in light of the chosen people, Israel: “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love," (Eph 1:4). We know that Paul traveled to Ephesus and there spent three months reasoning with the Jews in the synagogues (Acts 19:1-8). Thus, Ephesians seems to be once again, for “the Jew first and then the Gentile” paradigm."
Ephesians 1:4-5 does not support Calvinism.
Or 2 Thes. 2:13?
From the article:
"The letter to the Thessalonians is also a letter to the Jews first and then the Gentiles. In Acts 17 we read “they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures… and some of them were persuaded and … joined Paul and Silas.” (Acts 17:1, 2, 4) With that in mind, we can see why Paul would say “we give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers… knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God." (1 Thes 1:2, 4) Once again, election is not Calvinistic in its definition, but Jewish."
2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not support Calvinism.
or even 2 Peter 2:9?
then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment
That has absolutely nothing to do with Calvinism and certainly does not "validate" Calvinism in any way.
:)
***Note he did not preach, “Some of you must repent and believe, and others cannot - so let’s find out which is which!”***
However, he did say, “Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “to yu it has been given toi know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, buit to them it has not been given.” Matthew 13:10-11.
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