Posted on 08/10/2011 8:11:57 AM PDT by janereinheimer
How would you define "Christian?"
I've been giving this a lot of thought lately. It goes back a couple of weeks when someone made a comment that someone who's been in the news a lot lately was not a "Christian."
I take an existential view of that because I believe that anyone who has had a Christian baptism is a Christian.
Where I depart company from the pious and sanctimonious definitions of others is when their definition of Christian is really a definition of being "Christ-like."
Oh, for sure, I would hope that Christians everywhere would behave in a Christ-like manner. But there are a lot of people who have had a Christian baptism who are far from behaving like Christ did. They are corrupt sinners in need of salvation. They may or may not ever repent of their rotten, sinful lives until they are within minutes of drawing their last breath. But even at that last breath, if they truly repent and ask God for forgiveness, then I believe that our loving, forgiving God will open the gates of heaven and receive that sinner. Just as surely as he will receive the person who has tried hard to lead a Christ-like life.
For instance, C. S. Lewis wasn't exactly known for his faith in God when he got started in his writing career. In fact, he set out in his early writings to prove God didn't exist at all.
Then, voila, an experience touched him. I've not read all that's to be read about Lewis or from Lewis, but I have a deep suspicion that the Holy Spirit got ahold of him because he became one of the most profound Christian writers ever to draw breath.
And then there was that other guy of New Testament fame -remember Saul? He ran around with execution warrants in his pocket so that he could mow down any Christians he happened to come across while he was going thither and yon throughout the lands of what we call the Holy Land. Remember Damascus? Jesus went to Syria to find Saul. Struck him down blind. Then someone drug Saul off to stay at his house while Saul recuperated from that insane notion that all Christians ought to be killed.
Blindness. That's how Jesus got Saul's attention. Well, Jesus healed his blindness. Not only did Saul get his sight back but he got a new, improved name too. From then on, he was called Paul. And fortunately for Christians everywhere, we have Paul. The New Testament would be a pretty slim volume without all the writings of Paul.
He was one grand letter writer, let me tell you!
But back to this sanctimonious person who thinks it's okay to go around making judgments about whether a person is a Christian or not.
She wouldn't agree that someone I went to jail to counsel for the best part of a year and a half was a Christian.* And then one day, out of that miracle place in the universe that we call nowhere, this murderer told me he wanted to take communion.
I told him he'd have to talk with a pastor about repentance if he wanted to do that.
He said he was ready. He wanted communion before he went to trial.
Do you know that I called about ten pastors before I found one who agreed to go to the jail and talk to this person? And yes, the pastor said he'd bring communion just in case the client confessed the sins of double murder.
Where would sinners be if we were not the road back to the Lord when they took the wrong turn?
Isn't sanctimony and piety very un-Christ-like behavior in themselves?
Where would the young teenage girl be if I had refused to see her because she was dabbling in Satanism?*
Or how about the wife who had committed adultery and was afraid to confess her sin to her pastor.* Even though her husband had forgiven her, she was most hopeful that God had too.
How can any one of us ever say that just because someone got off on the wrong path that they weren't Christians anymore?
Rather, it's our job as Christians to pray for sinners that they may somehow find the way back to a loving and forgiving Lord.
We are never, ever supposed to crawl back into our sanctimonious little turtle of a shell and declare a sinner a non-Christian. God does not like that.
*used with permission
P.S. It's discouraging that a very small percentage of pastors, priests and other spiritual leaders shed such a dim shadow across the field of spiritual shepherds who are very compassionate and loving and Christ-like. I thank God that these pastors outnumber those who focus on negativity and unforgiveness with sinners who seek their counsel; with sinners who need most of all to know that their sins are forgiven. There are a great many pastors who do not withhold the Means of Grace to repentant sinners.
having a Christian that is able to read at all is a fairly recent occurrence, for most of the Church’s history, the majority of people were illiterate, just as they were when Jesus walked the earth.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” - Matt 7
“The Church from the time Peter preached on Pentecost, has taught and believed baptism is for the remission of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit.”
Odd. Sometimes the Holy Spirit was received prior to baptism.
Further, does Jesus immerse us in water, or the Holy Spirit?
“33I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”
not odd at all. The Holy Spirit was showing Peter the Gospel was for the Gentiles, as well as the Jews.
neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit immerses us in water.
The Scriptures are clear, the Holy Spirit baptizes us thru the Body of Christ, the Church. Jesus breathed on the Apostles to receive the Holy Spirit, the Apostles laid hands on other faithful men to teach and baptize when the Apostles passed, just as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28. The Church has the authority from Jesus Himself, it is the vessel the Holy Spirit uses to bring men into the Kingdom of God. as Ephesians 4 tells us, there is One Baptism.
this is the historical, orthodox Faith, first taught on Pentecost, and taught and believed by Christians for 2,000 years. in the 16th century, a heresy arose that says there are two baptisms, one a so called Spirit baptism and two, a so called water baptism. this new doctrine was unheard of for 16 centuries and absolutely violates Ephesians 4. it also teaches this so called water baptism is done to be obedient to Jesus and for making a public declaration to join a local church...of course no one in the NT was ever told this, so this is just a 16th century tradition of men.
depends by what you mean by “fundamentalist”.
it wasn’t the beginning, but i think it’s fair to say it certainly contributed to the thousands of different sects who sprang to life in the last century or two.
false teachers will arise and lead many astray.....
it wasn’t the beginning, but i think it’s fair to say it certainly contributed to the thousands of different sects who sprang to life in the last century or two.
false teachers will arise and lead many astray.....
Is the baptism of Jesus, according to the scriptures, one of water or spirit?
Which makes one a Christian? If water, why are so many baptized who reject Jesus as Lord? And why does John the Baptist say Jesus will baptize (immerse) us with the Holy Spirit?
Does the Spirit give life, or water?
While we are at it, who are the priests in the New Testament?
“2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.” - Gal 3
Here is the passage in Ephesians:
“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”
One body - physical or spiritual?
One spirit - physical or spiritual?
One hope - physical or spiritual?
One Lord - physical or spiritual?
One faith - physical or spiritual?
One baptism - physical or spiritual?
One God - physical or spiritual?
Of the seven ones, it is painfully obvious that 6 are spiritual. So why do you pluck out baptism to make it physical? Particularly when the baptism of Jesus is with the Holy Spirit - per John the Baptist...
You and I are the Church so lets reason together. May the Holy Spirit be involved n the conversation so that we sharpen and not batter each other :-)
Are you of the belief then that Scripture says that salvation is granted by works + Faith or Faith alone?
I read and understand Scripture to say that Christ alone is worthy to offer us Salvation and that we are saved by Grace through Faith. I see nowhere in scripture baptism taking our sins or giving us the Holy Spirit, but I see many examples of people getting the Holy spirit before Baptism and Jesus dying for our sins, not baptism.
Thoughts?
I agree.
Did I post something about getting Baptized to be obedient to the Lord? Only thing I’d want to clarify is what are your views on the One Baptism? Water or Spirit?
Ooops- I should clarify in reading this thread a little closer- By Baptism I mean the public event of Baptism with water. Not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I’d also like to ask what your definition of the Church is. Is it the Roman Catholic Church or is it all who Believe Christ to be Lord and act accordingly ( Ie- taking the great commission, believing all the tenants of the Nicene Creed) , etc....
Cool, thanks! I remembered an aspect of the definition, but not the definition itelf, and I totally forgot the word. This getting old thing is rough. I don’t recommend it.
I totally agree. But to us frail sinners anything can be an idol and a snare, even humility. “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
My Pleasure, FRiend!
I love the fact that the NT is in Greek, as the meanings are very precise and expressive.
Of course, Jesus and His Disciples probably spoke Aramaic and Hebrew.
That would render Luke 10:18 (”I saw satan fall from heaven like lightening from the high places”) into:
“I saw satan fall from heaven like barahk o’ bahma.”
Just sayin” LOL.
Snort! LOL
double snort! hahahaha
Then ,of course, there is the “Obamanation that makes Desolation”
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