Do you understand how crazy this sounds? Hebrew charactors (note the spelling) was equally able to be done in stone or parchment.
Friend Elsie has posted the faux caractors often enough. Nope, nothing of the truth there.
Posted on 07/25/2011 10:34:37 AM PDT by greyfoxx39
Here is the original link, plus a repeat of the POOR CHARACTER of the so called witnesses
http://209.157.64.200/focus/religion/2522214/posts?page=805#805
Character of the 11 Witnesses
Joseph Smith claims that after he translated the plates, he returned them to the angel Moroni. Therefore, there is no way to verify the veracity of the plates or Smith's translation. Smith's only defense of his account is the eleven men who signed statements claiming to have seen the golden plates. Therefore, the credibility of Smith's account rests on the testimony of these eleven witnesses. There are three key witnesses who claim to have seen the angel show the golden plates to them. The remaining eight allege to have seen the plates but not the angel. The LDS church asserts these men never denied their testimony. However, when we examine the lives of the witnesses, we find they were untrustworthy, wavering, and gullible witnesses.
Six of the eleven witnesses, including the three key witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the church. Former Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson summed up the legacy of the eleven witnesses this way. "Six of the original Twelve Apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the church. Three of Joseph Smith's counselors fell--one even helped plot his death. . . . The wolves among our flock are more numerous and devious today than when President Clark made a similar statement [in 1949]."{6}
Let us first examine the character of the three key witnesses since their testimony is the most important. In a letter dated December 16, 1838, Joseph Smith stated this about the three key witnesses and John Whitmer, one of the eight. "John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention."{7}
Martin Harris' testimony shows him to be a gullible and unstable man. He changed his religious conviction approximately thirteen times. He had joined several Christian denominations and other cult groups that include the Universalists, Strangites, and the Shakers. {8}(Ankerberg, 196) In Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith gave revelations in which he denounces Martin Harris and calls him a "wicked man."{9} The Mormon leaders published an article in the Elder's Journal, a Mormon publication edited by Joseph Smith, in which they accused Harris guilty of "swearing, lying, cheating, swindling, drinking, with every species of debauchery. . ." (Elders Journal, August, 1838, 59).{10} Here the leaders of the Mormon Church strongly criticize the character of Harris.
Oliver Cowdery was also shown to be a very gullible man. He was led astray by Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses who himself claimed to have divine revelations from his own seer stone. Although Joseph Smith denounced Hiram as a false teacher, Smith stated "to our grief, however, we soon found that Satan had been lying in wait to deceive. . . . Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he obtained certain 'revelations' . . . all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God's House, . . ."{11} Despite Smith's condemnation, Oliver Cowdery joined Page's movement. Not only was he a gullible man, he was also indicted on several accounts of fraudulent business practices. The Mormon Church in a letter wrote, "During the career of Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer's bogus money business, it got abroad into the world that they were engaged in it. . . . We have evidence of a very strong character that you are at this very time engaged with a gang of counterfeiters, coiners, and blacklegs . . ."{12} Cowdery was eventually excommunicated and he later joined the Methodist Church.
David Whitmer wrote, "God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter- day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. . . . About the same time that I came out, the Spirit of God moved upon quite a number of the brethren who came out, with their families, all of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the three Smiths) came out; . . ."{13} Here David Whitmer denounced the Mormon Church and encouraged people to follow his example and the example of the other witnesses and leave the church.
Joseph Smith in response attacked the character of David Whitmer. Smith stated, "God suffered such kind of beings to afflict Job . . . this poor man who professes to be much of a prophet, has no other dumb ass to ride but David Whitmer, to forbid his madness when he goes up to curse Israel: and this ass not being of the same kind as Balaam's . . . he brays out cursing instead of blessings. Poor ass!"{14}
The character and life of the eleven witnesses to the Book of Mormon are very different from the Apostles of Christ. None of the Apostles wavered in their defense of Christ, even though all suffered and most died for their faith. The Apostles remained consistent in their teaching and never fell into any type of apostasy. Their lives were marked by honesty and integrity. They were never indicted for any criminal activity except for preaching Christ. The character of the Book of Mormon's eleven witnesses does not strengthen Smith's defense but cast further doubt on its authenticity.
Probe Ministry website quote
Do you understand how crazy this sounds? Hebrew charactors (note the spelling) was equally able to be done in stone or parchment.
Friend Elsie has posted the faux caractors often enough. Nope, nothing of the truth there.
Hmm. Have you tried accounting?
LOL. Actually, I like accounting, but have only done it for business classes (my first major) and my businesses. Other people don’t keep books to my standards. :D
Hebrew charactors (note the spelling) was equally able to be done in stone or parchment.
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And metal. There are a couple of examples of Hebrew text on metal.
No Doz. Don't talk to reaganaut without it!!!zzzzzzzzzzzzz
Hmmm. Let's see. How many examples of LDS Caracters on metal do we have?
OUCH! Am I that dull? I thought I was cute and witty. :D
How many examples of LDS Caracters on metal do we have?
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None, zero, zip, nada
Well, there is the possibility of a lingerie shot changing our minds... :)
- - - - None, zero, zip, nada
Well, John? Where are these metal plates that are soooo conducive to having all kinds of these caracters easily cut on them by incompetent LDS angels?
Well, there is the possibility of a lingerie shot changing our minds... :)
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I don’t think hubby would approve, but I will ping him just in case.
5 will get you 10 that he references the Jordan codices which most scholars recognize as fake.
Well, I’m willing to take the shot, but I don’t think I’ll be sharing it...
Well, that's interesting. Whitmer's cadaver etched out a comment on his gravestone, eh?
Even the Mormon Times, owned by the Mormon church, who would have a biased vested interest in promoting all things Book of Mormon, stated about Joseph Smith's scribes:
...so many of his scribes fell away or died. The list is saddening: Whitmer, Rigdon, Parrish and Robinson all left the church, NEVER to return. Cowdery, Williams and Phelps were excommunicated, but came into full fellowship. Hyde was disfellowshipped for a time. Mulholland and Thompson died in Illinois. Whitmer even took some of the documents with him on the way out of the church. Only Richards, Bullock and Clayton stayed in the church the whole time.
Souce: Scribes recorded Prophet's 'crooked, broken language')
So that's Whitmer.
Ya first wanna tell us, John, why by 1847 -- 17 years after the publishing of the Book of Mormon -- NONE of these so-called 11 witnesses were part of the Mormon church?
By 1847 not a single one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the Mormon church. (Godzilla comment to John McDonnell, July 13, 2010, post 1,004 The fight over Book of Mormon geography
I mean, c'mon John, 'Zilla told you this over a year ago, and yet you're still riding the backs of such weak 'witnessies' -- witnesses that we'd probably agree fall into your "wicked old Mormons" category you brought up earlier in this thread?
Of the other 10, did you ever happen to notice that one of those was Smith...? And that two other Smiths signed their names. (So, of course, you'll have the "Westboro effect" with relatives clinging to whatever Joe Smith Jr. said)
What about the others?
Well besides David Whitmer, there were 4 other Whitmers that David had coerced to sign: Christian Whitmer; Jacob Whitmer; Peter Whitmer, Jr.; and John Whitmer. And even Hiram Page, who Joseph Smith accused of being a false teacher, was married to Catherine Whitmer Page. Just more of the Westboro effect.
So now we're down to just Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris.
Well, on the same link above (post #1006), AMPU mentioned how Smith stated “to our grief, however, we soon found that Satan had been lying in wait to deceive. . . . Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he obtained certain ‘revelations’ . . . ALL of which were entirely at variance with the order of God’s House, . . .”{11} Despite Smith’s condemnation, Oliver Cowdery joined Page’s movement. Not only was he a gullible man, he was also indicted on several accounts of fraudulent business practices. The Mormon Church in a letter wrote, “During the career of Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer’s bogus money business, it got abroad into the world that they were engaged in it. . . . We have evidence of a very strong character that you are at this very time engaged with a gang of counterfeiters, coiners, and blacklegs . . .”{12} Cowdery was eventually excommunicated...
Harris bounced all around -- including the shakers, etc. As AMPU mentioned: Martin Harris’ testimony shows him to be a gullible and unstable man. He changed his religious conviction approximately thirteen times. He had joined several Christian denominations and other cult groups that include the Universalists, Strangites, and the Shakers. {8}(Ankerberg, 196)
Wow, John! (Such "stellar" character witnesses).
John, even a very early (1828) supposed "revelation" from Joseph Smith holds you accountable here: "...those who lie because others lie are not exempt from God's justice..." (D&C 10:28, Mormon church version)
That’s okay. Colleen saw the post. I don’t think that I’d be seeing it in in any case...
Hebrew caracters with no vowel markings are indeed compact. However, once you start adding tittles and other minute markings, you've got a major problem for engraving on metal plates. Also Hebrew characters are written in a variety of stroke widths, another major problem.
You do not seem to catch the significance of "reformed" Egyptian. While you are correct that ancient Egyptian writing is not simple, Chinese caractors are also complex, and a modernized and simplified form of Chinese caractors does exist. One could even call that simplified Chinese "reformed".
The Book of Mormon plainly states that no other people can read their reformed Egyptian caractors, which means that Book of Mormon authors and scribes invented reformed Egyptian specifically for their recording on plates. They would obviously create a caractor set that would not, as in Hebrew, have various widths of stroke nor a system of tittles and other time-consuming minute markings.
I only wish that the 8 witnesses had been a little more specific in describing the reformed Egyptian that they looked at: "and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated, we did handle with our hands: and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship".
Yup; that's what most folks would do:
INVENT another alphabet instead of changing the storage medium.
Only an Abominable Apostate, such as yourself, would OMIT the FACT that it was written in REFORMED Egyptian!
Even though no sample is in evidence, the mere FACT that we have the beloved Book Of MORMON (PBUI) more than PROVES that JS was a prophet and a messenger of GOD!
--MormonDude(Hang in there JMcD; THIS western brother has got yer back!)
Ya left out the jots and the tittles...
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