Posted on 07/14/2011 5:36:29 PM PDT by wmfights
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal,
Amen!
There are many professing Christians who deny original sin.
That occurred to me as well.
Yet they are willing to accept the righteousness of one man. Or perhaps they really don’t get the imputation of Christ’s righteousness.
I think it's a source of the error in islam where they believe that the works of a person are what saves them.
On the Cross, for whom did Christ pray?
Answer: “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.”
As St, Stephen is being stoned, what does he say?
I don’t have the exact words but he prayed that their sin of killing him would be forgiven.
Just a couple of examples from the Bible for you.
Many martyrs pray for their persecutor’s forgiveness as they are being executed.
I do not deny any of that, but it is still not payment for another’s sin when a sinner prays for his fellow man. Its forgiveness of the highest order though.
A believer remaining in in fellowship with God through faith in Christ, regardless the situation, technically a 'witness' of His faith. Technically and simply a witness for Christ.
The word martyr, while a witness of faith in Christ, is frequently perceived from a soulish perspective as a believer who is subjected to torture and murder, though persevering in the faith. This is the perception of those who are not perceiving the human spirit or spiritual things, but instead only perceives mental and physical forces upon the 'martyr'.
For whom does a martyr sacrifice? Clearly, the martyr sacrifices for his faith in Jesus... but it is more than that. Faith in Jesus isn't simply trusting Who He Is... it is trusting in His Mission here on Earth. Jesus came to call all men to Himself. He opened the Gates of Heaven and sent us out to preach, teach and to Baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In the martyr's witness is the reconciliation of sinners. As Salvation already pointed out to you, the martyr's prayer is for the salvation of his oppressors. What would it profit a martyr to desire the punishment of his punishers? Clearly, you can see the power of the martyr in this simple question. In living the second greatest commandment, the martyr doesn't desire that his oppressor lose Heaven but rather that his sacrifice might gain their salvation.
Earlier, editor-surveyor said that "Only a sinless man could pay for another’s sin. - That is the premise of the entire Bible." Is it? I read somewhere that we are the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:12-14) and where He led is where we must also go. We are to take up our own crosses and follow Him (Matt 16:24). The resounding message of the Bible is that salvation is ongoing through the sacrifices of Christ's Body in the world... the Church. Christ is the Lamb of God offered as the Sacrifice of the New Covenant through which we have been reborn to God's Holy Family. There is no further sacrifice to reforge this bond. However, history shows that sacrifices continue in the sufferings of the martyrs... that is because, as the Body of Christ, the Church continues His Work in the salvation of souls! We participate in these sacrifices with our time, talent and treasures. In these sacrifices, we are participating in the life of the Church and furthering Her Mission. We give of our talents and treasure in what we can do and what we have. We give of our time in spending it with others, in study and in prayer.
What converted the Roman Empire? The blood of the martyrs. Throughout history, this is how those who persecuted the Church have come to join with Her. It is also how many great theologians have been formed (the sacrifices of St Monica for St Augustine). Indeed, from St Augustine's Confessions we read: "In place of a basket filled with fruits of the earth, she had learned to bring to the oratories of the martyrs a heart full of purer petitions, and to give all that she could to the poor - so that the communion of the Lord's body might be rightly celebrated in those places where, after the example of his passion, the martyrs had been sacrificed and crowned." - 6.2.2
In denying our ability to sacrifice for the sins of others, you deny our identity as the Body of Christ.
These thoughts are mine formed through my understanding of the teachings of the Church. I pray that any defects in my explanation or understanding may not lead any other to stumble.
"Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man.... the fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does 'head and members' mean? Christ and the Church."
-- St Augustine
The Blood of Christ is sufficient for my faith,...no need to add any other’s to it.
[Shaking the dust from my feet...]
Thank you for the blessing.
I’ve never observed a situation where unbelievers insisting upon murdering believers manifests more glory for God, but I do testify that those who persevered, even unto death, manifest outstanding witness of their faith to God through Christ.
To me, their witness was their perseverance, remaining faithful in fellowship with God, not their ability to receive punishment, torture and murder.
I suspect too many will in the future encourage the torture and death of Christians based upon the faulty logic that such misery is what being a witness means. Nothing could be further from the truth.
This is well stated... but the thought is incomplete. What is missing in the thought is the definition of faith. It is not enough to believe with simple knowledge... true belief is an action word. That belief will motivate the true believer. For example... we all believe that education is important. My children believe it too. This belief is manifest in their studies and decision to apply their schooling. There is no belief where there is no action (St James). Therefore, in the martyrs' faith is their trust in the Mission of Christ... to reconcile all men to God. These men die not just to 'show' their faith... they die to live their faith fully... and living it is carrying on Christ's Great Commission that all men may come to know Him.
I suspect too many will in the future encourage the torture and death of Christians based upon the faulty logic that such misery is what being a witness means.
Where does this come from? The Church does not rejoice that men suffer... She rejoices in God, Her Savior Whose Will is accomplished even through the suffering of His Faithful. No one desires martyrdom... but it would be a great folly for the believer to reject the opportunity.
Youe wordy reply twists and turns and runs through rabbit holes to god knows where, and turns God’s perfect word on its head.
Every human but Christ is a sinner, some forgiven, but none the less a sinner, and incapable of paying for their own sin, let alone others’.
Are you part of the Body of Christ?
I am part of the Bride of Christ.
Is that a yes or no in your view of the Gospel?
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