CALVINISM IN AMERICA [Happy "Presbyterian Rebellion" Day, everybody!]

Reformed Theology.org ^ | Loraine Boettner

[Cronos]

your post 28 is incorrect on the 4th point that Fourth, the modern missionary movement as we have come to know it, was founded and stimulated by William Carey, a Calvinist

As I said The missionary movement was founded by Christ. There is no such thing as "modern missionary movement" indicating a discontinuation with the original message to spread the Word of Christ -- the commission given by Christ Himself. -- are followers of Calvin trying to say that Christ did not start the missionary movement that continues to the present day?

Or are followers of Calvin saying they started a new missionary movement to spread the Gospel of Calvin in opposition to the Gospel of Christ?

[Cronos]

Finally, your point one that must do their utmost to bring the whole world into Christ’s fold, is utterly incompatible with the ideas that God preprogrammed all to good or evil, pre-damned many to heck and no one has any free will -- that means that no one can "do" (a work) anything to "bring" someone into Christ's fold -- it's already predetermined. Jean contradicts himself as do his followers.

[Cronos]

Actually, weren’t there Presbyterians on the English side as well? What about Baptists?

[BlueDragon]

You’re still not making any sense. I give up.

[Titanites]

You’re still not making any sense. I give up.

I suppose that's an easy out.

[BlueDragon]

How can it be both "rebellion against god day" and a happily celebrated (and rightfully enough?) "Independence day".

The inconsistency of that duplicitous position is glaring.

My cult? hah-ha. That's funny.

I'm no Presbyterian. But I appreciate what they did, the influential role they played for the cause of liberty from the tyranny of kings. So sue me. I'm a grateful American.

I hear there are openings in Canada, if you prefer living (somewhat) under monarchy.

I'd favor the West, personally, as I don't speak French, nor have little sympathy for the hardheadedness of the Quebecois separatists. The Western Canadians I've met have been almost universally fine folk, good to be around. I could recommend them as being potentially good neighbors to have close by...

Send us a postcard, wouldya'?

[BlueDragon]

I suppose that's an easy out.

You've burned through what little patience I had left.

Try making sense. I might respond to that...

[Titanites]

You've burned through what little patience I had left.

I can see how refusing to play the games you were up to might do that.

Try making sense. I might respond to that...

The sense of trying to make it look like I was responding to something I wasn't? Nice try, but no, that's not going to happen.

[Cronos]

Titanites:I can see how refusing to play the games you were up to might do that. -- ha ha! Good catch titanites! BD's posts were just that

[Cronos]

BD (posted on 6th of July): "happy presbyterian rebellion day, everybody" -- I guess the "rebellion against God" day is on the 6th of July, eh?

ok.... 6th of July is your cult's day. Good. The rest of America celebrates the 4th as Independence day and your cult (whichever one of the numerous PCUSA, WBC, etc. cults it is) celebrates the 6th as it's "rebellion against God" day...

[Cronos]

In fact, the German Baptists etc. did not even fight for the Revolutionary side in the War -- why didn't your faith ancestors do that?

For instance, Connor Dowd who was a member of the Haw River Separatist Baptist Church. This strongly pacifist congregation had forbidden its members to “take up arms against la[w]ful authority,” that is, the established government.

[Diamond]

...it's already predetermined. Jean contradicts himself as do his followers.

Is that a tacit admission that those I mentioned in post #28:

David Brainerd
John G. Paton
Henry Martyn
Gerorge Whitfield,
Theodore Frelinghuysen
Gilbert Tennent
Jonathan Edwards
those who went to Brazil
countless others, including many martyrs

were, in fact, missionaries who engaged in missionary activity?

I have asked you directly and explicitly three times why, if "Calvinists didn't believe in missionary work", or as you put it, "Calvinism is incompatible with missionary work", the particular Calvinists I listed in post #28 engaged in the extensive missionary work that they did, and when you finally get outside a country mile of answering the question it appears that your tacit, nonsensical answer is that they engaged in such extensive missionary activity because they were contradicting their own theology.

I know that some people react to the name of Calvin like a bull to a matador's cape, but did the possibility ever occur to you that you might not have a correct apprehension of the theology and that you ought to examine it more closely before you brazenly accuse them of contradicting themselves based on nothing but your own caricatures of it?

If past posts on this thread are any indication of what is to come, I do not expect a serious, intelligible answer from you. It will probably be something along the lines of "Calvin created a police state".

Cordially,

[BlueDragon]

Good catch titanites! BD's posts were just that

That take on it it is as backward as his. I attempted to explain it twice to him, but I guess pride, and the desire to be a pain in the neck precluded understanding.

Let me know when you find some earth-bound king to submit yourself to.

[Cronos]

BlueDragon: You're trying to make people think the Reformation began and ended with Calvin?

Are you talking of the new reformatters like John Smith or Charles Taze Russell or Ellen G White?

So the Reformation goes on!! And thanks to the re-re-reformatting there is Genie Robinson! congratulations!

[Cronos]

BD: Let me know when you find some earth-bound king to submit yourself to.

No thank you, I'm American. If you want to submit yourself to some such earth-bound king and follow Calvin's advice, you're welcome to do so...

[Cronos]

Actually, that's a good point -- Calvin did create a police state in Geneva, where they attacked fellow Protestants as exemplified in

1. Belot, an Anabaptist was arrested for passing out tracts in Geneva and also accusing Calvin of excessive use of wine. With his books and tracts burned, he was banished from the city and told not to return on pain of hanging (J.L. Adams, The Radical Reformation, pp. 597-598).
2. Jacques Gruent was racked and then executed for calling Calvin a hypocrite
3. A man who publicly protested against the reformer's doctrine of predestination was flogged at all the crossways of the city and then expelled.
4. Calvin's Letter to the Marquis Paet, chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561. "Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels [Anabaptists and others], who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."

Sources quoted in Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, vol. 8:

• "The death penalty against heresy, idolatry and blasphemy and barbarous customs of torture were retained. Attendance at public worship was commanded on penalty of three sols. Watchmen were appointed to see that people went to church. The members of the Consistory visited every house once a year to examine the faith and morals of the family. Every unseemly word and act on the street was reported, and the offenders were cited before the Consistory to be either censured and warned, or to be handed over to the Council for severer punishment."

• Several women, among them the wife of Ami Perrin, the captain-general, were imprisoned for dancing.

• A man was banished from the city for three months because on hearing an ass bray, he said jestingly 'He prays a beautiful psalm.'

• A young man was punished because he gave his bride a book on housekeeping with the remark: 'This is the best Psalter.'

• Three men who laughed during a sermon were imprisoned for three days.

• Three children were punished because they remained outside of the church during the sermon to eat cakes.

• A man who swore by the 'body and blood of Christ' was fined and condemned to stand for an hour in the pillory on the public square.

• A child was whipped for calling his mother a thief and a she-devil.

• A girl was beheaded for striking her parents.

• A banker was executed for repeated adultery.

• A person named Chapuis was imprisoned for four days because he persisted in calling his child Claude (a Roman Catholic saint) instead of Abraham.

• Men and women were burnt to death for witchcraft. (See Pike, pp. 55,56).

From Other Sources:

[Cronos]

who are these boys sent to Brazil by Calvin? Are they the same as in your list?

[Diamond]

your post 28 is incorrect — as I pointed out clearly, the second is utterly false, Calvin did not evangelize France — that was done by Remigius in 496 AD — are you saying that France was not Christian until Cauvin popped up?

Are you saying that evangelism was completed by Remugius in France and that it therefore ceased, there being no need for it anymore in Calvin's day? On one hand you say (committing a category error) that there is no such thing as a modern missionary movement because the Great Commission of Christ is continuous, and on the other hand you imply that Calvin did not and could not have evangelized France because evangelism in France was completed or accomplished by Remigius. Your statements on this topic are inchoherent.

Was everyone in France a Christian in Remugius' day? Is everyone in France today a Christian?

If you can define historical facts out of existence merely by definition, sooner or later you will end up contradicting yourself.

Cordially,

[Cronos]

you said "Henry Martyn" -- he was an Anglican priest, not a Presbtyerian calvinist one

ditto for George Whitefield -- Anglican

it seems to be fairly common for followers of Calvin to claim a lot of stuff, eh?

Then you said "Theodore Frelinghuysen" -- he was a politician, not a missionary

[Cronos]

Are YOU saying that Calvin started or finished evangelization in France?

either way that's false

Remigius baptised Clovis I, France was already Christian for over a thousand years before Jean Cauvin, so your statement that "Calvin evangelized France" was false