Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD
One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)
• Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
• Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
• Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
• John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
• Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
• 1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
• Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.
• Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."
He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."
Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.
The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.
It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.
Ah, the theological processes of a "biblical unitarian universalist" are a wonder to behold...
Yet, this is what Christ actually says:
Matthew 16:16-9
“And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give unto [b]thee[/b]
[b]the keys of the kingdom of heaven[/b]:
[b]and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[/b]”
His words, not yours.
I see where your post is a typical Catholic post. Rather than seriously consider what the scriptures are saying, the scriptures are touted as "ridiculous" (yes, the scriptures are because this is basically what the author uses). Instead, it is what the Catholic Church states as being fact is considered fact, irrespective of scripture. This is similar to the Democrats all saying that 2 million jobs were created over the last two months and all the minions shake their heads yes that it must be so because Obama says so.
You have confirmed that CATHOLICS WORSHIP MARY with the "Worship Mary" Website.
I knew this Goddess was given Sinlessness (Only God is Sinless). I knew she was deemed the Co-Redemptrix, the Co-Matrix and a whole lot more god like attributes. But you have confirmed what I thought all along.
Catholics Worship Mary.
sm... you keep forgetting the dress and red shoes!!!! C'mon, now -- you can't keep doing this! :D
Hoss
If anyone thinks this Proddy is
EVER
going to interpret that to mean anything other than
that
Christ will build His church on
the Holy Spirit fostered FAITH
like Peter had,
they would be delusional to think so.
(Matthew 12:46-50, NKJV) "While He (Jesus) was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, 'Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.'
"But He answered and said to the one who told Him, 'Who is My mother and who are My brothers?' And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, 'Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.'
Also, Jesus said, Matthew 13:57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."
Could it have been that his own half brothers and sisters didn't believe He was the son of God? Could some of them have even been jealous of Him?
Sorry Quix, when I posted #307 I meant add your name to the recipients. I forgot to do that until after I posted.
Let's look at just one of the "authorized" English language Catholic Bibles.
The NAB editions, 1970, 1986, 1991, (2010?). The poor dummies must have been working with the same "original" Scripture with the exact same wording, yet enough "errors" were made to require "improved" version after version.
If only Natural Law were available and willing we would, no doubt, have the one perfect edition.
The fact that no original manuscripts exist is of no account. Natural Law "knows" what the exact original wording was.
Perhaps it is time for the one qualified expert in the world to compile the one "perfect" Bible in the original languages and then, at the least, compile the "perfect" Bible in contemporary English. (That would be sufficient for a time.)
After all, the only person in the entire world who is not "Scripturally clueless" must, by the standards of Natural Law, be Natural Law.
No sweat. Thanks thanks.
The whole idea that those languages were so inadequate as to be unable to distinguish between cousins vs brothers and sisters
is sheer nonsense.
Well, Jerome, at least for a time, believed Joseph too was a virgin.
Of course, for a time, he believed the "Apocrypha" was not canonical.
Obviously when Paul wrote his letter to the Romans the only Scripture in existence was the "Old Testament".
Though the Catholic Church and the Protestants have maintained their versions the "oracles of God" was, is, and always will be be entrusted to the Jews.
We do not need any Chriistian Church to maintain the Tanach.
I actually see your post as typical of the anti-Catholics who troll these threads and highly atypical of the vast majority of actual Christian Protestants.
It seems contextually, that jacknhoo was stating that the interpretation imposed upon the cited Scripture was ridiculous, not the actual Scripture itself. The problem with the fringe Protestants is that they actually believe that when they impost their understanding and interpretation on Scripture that they have altered Scripture to fit their beliefs and created a new universal reality. The problem is that for the vast majority of Christians that new alter reality is a very recognizable sham.
You evade the point. What about this whole ‘binding and loosing’ thing. Keys to the kingdom of heaven?
Seems pretty clear to me that Christ is appointing Peter to an office. Best of all, it’s scriptural. I thought protestants believed that scripture was the primary source for their beliefs.
“The whole idea that those languages were so inadequate as to be unable to distinguish between cousins vs brothers and sisters is sheer nonsense.”
Indeed. I completely agree with you.
Tell me Quix, what does the name of the city of Philadephia mean?
NOPE.
Not at all.
Belief in Christ’s Blood as Salvific covering for their sins gives each Believer KEYS TO THE KINGDOM.
Been binding and loosing in Jesus’ Name most of my Christian life with significant results much of the time.
Believing unrubberized Scripture is very different
from
believing Vatican Cult magicsterically mangled rubberized pseudo-’Bibles.’
The Vatican Cult’s self-serving politicla power-monger populated Magicsterical has long (1600 years worth) twisted many Scriptures to serve it’s political power-mongering designs.
IIRC, City of Brotherly Love.
However, I don’t usually play such guessing games.
“But He answered and said to the one who told Him, ‘Who is My mother and who are My brothers?’ And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, ‘Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
The word that is translated as ‘brothers’ is actually adelphoi in the Greek. Exact same as in Philadelphia, (Philo-adelphoi), city of Brotherly love. ;)
You can check it out for yourself. Adelphoi isn’t limited to ‘blood brothers’. That’s not how the Greek word is used.
How convenient to ignore the context again.
The emphasis.
THE TOTAL POINT OF THE VERSES
IS TOTALLY LOST
UNLESS THE MEANING IS AS USUALLY TRANSLATED BY FAIR-MINDED QUALITY TRANSLATORS . . .
BLOOD BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
Your house of Vatican Cult Cards still falls.
If you could convince us that the English language remained absolutely constant and that word meaning and usage didn't change over the last 500+ years you might have a case for the Church revising Scripture.
Alas, poor Reggie. Thy intpinse rapture to tax Church and delate Her is nay young nor doth it draw coil. I couch not testy or a knap not landed, for front perpend Her grave yet.
Funny how the choice of Latin has been proven brilliant over time.
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