Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Protoevangelium of James
“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
“And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’” (ibid., 8–9).
“And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’” (ibid., 15).
“And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’” (ibid.).
Origen
“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
“And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
Leporius
“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I
“His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained” (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
If you are going to insist Y is true because X is true, you’d better have some evidence that X is true - which is not explained with “because Y is true”.
Did you read the definition of the word "prayer"? Is the dictionary in error here?
Then by what right do you presume to advise others on matters of which you are clearly ignorant?
First, I wasn't "lecturing" anyone -- I was replying to a poster with whom I agreed. Your appearance in replying to me began the lecture. And, I believe (possibly erroneously -- the RM will make the call), you're making this thread about me.
Second, the right that I have to presume to do anything here is called, oh, I don't know -- freedom? Now... since this is a privately-owned forum, the owner or one of his agents can pull my posts if I violate his terms. Ignorance, of which you accuse me, wasn't on that list the last time I looked. But, since I'm registered, and thankfully have not managed to get zotted, I'd say that gives me the privilege to be here. Same as you.
Finally, I was not advising ANYONE on any matter - as I stated, I was replying to a post made by Metmom. If you perceived my statement to her to be lecturing or advising you, that's an issue with you that you will need to resolve.
Hoss
Thanks for your kind words.
BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB.
Do you think God sees those who dodge providing examples of their errors?
You seem to bat sharp perceptive astuteness 100% of the time. Amazing.
I don’t often see others slice through so much blather so quickly and concisely.
Making the thread "about" an individual Freeper is also a form of "making it personal."
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
So you’re saying Marbren isn’t a protestant?
Because clearly that is exactly what was done...
Nonsense
Either the poster knows the matter under discussion, or they are feigning ignorance. There is no alternative.
Thank you so much for your encouragements, dear brother in Christ!
IT BTW is the wisdom that comes from the relationship with and faith IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST not idols.
The way the story goes is that Nestorius said Mary was not the Mother of God...NOT that Mary was not the Mother of the Son of God...In fact, Nestorius knew that Jesus was the Son of God and that Mary was his mother...
I'm thinking Aquinas is embellishing the story some...And for more proof,,,
Moreover, although he might have said “born of a woman,” he distinctly says made, and not “born.”[1] Indeed, for something to be born it must not only be produced of a principle conjoined to it but be made from a principle separate from it. Thus a wooden chest is made by an artisan, but fruit is born from a tree.
Might have said 'born of woman'??? Where would Aquinas get this from??? Even so, Nestorius says 'made of woman'??? What's that mean??? That Mary drew a picture of Jesus and called the picture her son??? How does a woman 'make' a baby??? You ever heard that expression that a couple made a baby???
I think Aquinas is trying to start a fire just to see if it will burn...
Gack!Are you really suggesting that hanging out in Antioch guarantees they knew truth? This is like say because I live in NY I must know the complete list of laws of the state of NY
I don't really say it's the same thing at all...It's Antioch where people were first called Christians...It's where exploding Christian activity took off from...
AND, since Nestorius was obviously a Christian, that's a great connection...
Show us Nestorian writings that links them to the Apostles like writings of Saint Ignatius, Justyn Martyr and others?
And how do we know that these Gentiles and Egyptians are telling us the truth??? Oh ya, because they told us so themselves...
I didn't insist. Y was true. I'm insisting you can not deny X without denying Y.
INDEED.
However, you seem to be forgetting
The Vatican Cult’s
DIVINE RIGHT OF POWER-MONGERING AND LORDING IT OVER ONE AND ALL . . .
. . . And, some of the Stations of the Stations of the White Hanky . . . to wit:
1. ICON TO BEARING FALSE WITNESS
2. BLACK/WHITE ICON OF DUPLICITY, DOUBLE STANDARD DANCE
3. THE ICON OF THE IVORY HANDLED DAGGER—HONORING THE DOCTRINE OF—WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS—KILL THE MESSENGER.
4. ICON OF THE GOLDEN GYMNAST BACK-FLIPPER—TO HONOR THE DOCTRINE OF CHRONICALLY CHANGING THE SUBJECT
10. ICON OF THE 6.66” IVORY NOSE STUCK HIGH IN THE AIR—IN HONOR OF THE DOCTRINE OF HUBRIS TO THE SUPREME DEGREE
11. ICON OF THE GOLDEN GROPING HAND—GROPING FOR ANY EXPLANATION BUT THE TRUTH
12. ICON of the teak wood flip-flops from Hawaii in honor of the doctrine THE HOLY FLIP-FLOPS IN WORD MEANINGS AND ARGUMENTS
14. ICON of the gilded ivory halo in honor of THE FANTASIZED DIVINE RIGHT, TO BE CORRECT, PRISTINELY SANCTIFIED & PERFECTLY FLAWLESS IN ALL RESPECTS IN ALL CASES ALL THE TIME, REGARDLESS.
15. ICON of the marble bust of John SKerry in honor of the doctrine of CHRONIC & OBSESSIVE INCONSISTENCY.
17. ICON of the gilded ivory nose with olive branch surround in honor of the doctrine of THE UNDIVINE RIGHT OF TERMINAL SNOOTINESS TO THE MAX.
18. ICON OF THE SLIPPERY GOLDEN DANCE SHOES FOR DANCING THE RATIONALIZING-WEASEL-WORD-JITTER-BUG.
20. ICON OF THE GOLDEN THUMB SUCK IN HONOR OF RC’S RELIGIOUS DUTY TO BE TERMINALLY OFFENDED 24/7/365.
21. ICON of the silver figurine of the lofted tail of a skunk in honor of NAUSEATING NASTINESS in the faithful SERVICE OF the caricatured Magnificent Magical Mummy Ishtar-Mary.
24. ICON of the tiny gold Rube Goldberg Perpetual Motion Machine model in honor of The Vatican RELIGIOUS OBLIGATION of being Perpetually Offended.
27. ICON of the tiny golden whining siren in behalf of the sacred call to whine 24/7/365 or whenever within 200 feet of a Proddy.
[BTW, suggestions for additions are entertained]
GOD
does NOT have a poor memory to begin with!
Did you defend your private definition of “blasphemy,” or not?
The way the story goes is that Nestorius said Mary was not the Mother of God...NOT that Mary was not the Mother of the Son of God...In fact, Nestorius knew that Jesus was the Son of God and that Mary was his mother...
I'm thinking Aquinas is embellishing the story some...And for more proof,,,
Moreover, although he might have said “born of a woman,” he distinctly says made, and not “born.”[1] Indeed, for something to be born it must not only be produced of a principle conjoined to it but be made from a principle separate from it. Thus a wooden chest is made by an artisan, but fruit is born from a tree.
Might have said 'born of woman'??? Where would Aquinas get this from??? Even so, Nestorius says 'made of woman'??? What's that mean??? That Mary drew a picture of Jesus and called the picture her son??? How does a woman 'make' a baby??? You ever heard that expression that a couple made a baby???
I think Aquinas is trying to start a fire just to see if it will burn...
Gack!Are you really suggesting that hanging out in Antioch guarantees they knew truth? This is like say because I live in NY I must know the complete list of laws of the state of NY
I don't really say it's the same thing at all...It's Antioch where people were first called Christians...It's where exploding Christian activity took off from...
AND, since Nestorius was obviously a Christian, that's a great connection...
Show us Nestorian writings that links them to the Apostles like writings of Saint Ignatius, Justyn Martyr and others?
And how do we know that these Gentiles and Egyptians are telling us the truth??? Oh ya, because they told us so themselves...
Maybe the labels we give are man-made, but is the Church then man-made? No. It is Christ-made. Are all so-called churches Christ-made? Wouldn’t that mean all had been established in the first century? Is that the reality?
Jesus didn't establish a religious organization...Jesus established Christians who in turn are the church...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.