Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Protoevangelium of James
And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world. And Anne said, As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life. . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest, You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do. . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying, I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl (ibid., 89).
And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime. And the priest said, How so? And he said, He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth (ibid., 15).
And the priest said, Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God? . . . And she wept bitterly saying, As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man (ibid.).
Origen
The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Hilary of Poitiers
If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Marys sons and not those taken from Josephs former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, Woman, behold your son, and to John, Behold your mother [John 19:2627), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
And to holy Mary, [the title] Virgin is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospelthat he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
It helps us to understand the terms first-born and only-begotten when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin until she brought forth her first-born son [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lords body, that court of the eternal king (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man? (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
Leporius
We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria
[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I
His [Christs] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
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Hmmmm
I wonder if a learning disability could be a source of such . . .
No, I believe it comes from the Gall Salve factory. Try it. Hypocrites might find it soothing.
I am looking at the plain meaning of what it says and what it means.
The phrase *mother of God* says, mother of GOD.
Calling her *Mother of Christ*, or *Mother of God the Son* is more accurate and less misleading. It does not give any false impressions about who she is mother of.
The rationalization that the Catholic church and some Catholics give to justify a term that means something other than what it says, just does not wash.
Is it too hard to be precise about something?
God does not, did not, have a Mother. God the Father didn’t, God the Holy Spirit didn’t. Unless the Trinity isn’t what Catholics say it is, and the Father is the Son is the Holy Spirit and they are modes of each other, then calling her mother of God is not accurate.
Even so, she was mother of Jesus’ humanity, His flesh and blood human body, not His godhood. And the term mother of God does not delineate that. Calling her mother of Christ would recognize that.
No progress on the food issues. But it’s not any worse either. Thank you for your prayers.
MISconstruing yet again! LOL.
Must be taught in Parochial school.
That right, MetMom?
If you deny Christ having a human Mother you end up denying Christ as Incarnate God in the flesh -The second person of the Holy Trinity .
You're walking along the same heresy as Nestorius by taking out the human connection of Mother in the Virgin Birth you end up denying the Trinity of God the Son being fully Man
Perhaps you need to take some time off of FR and really study Christian history and contemplate some things
Trinitarian Christians are members of the Body of Christ.
The most basic meaning of the word pray is to petition. It is not exclusively used to mean devotion and/or adoration.
A fun and illuminating past time is to count the heresies that appear in these threads. Nestorianism is a big one.
Mary was the mother of the Person of Jesus Christ. One person with two indivisible natures, human and divine. So she was indeed the Mother of God.
I assume you learned about the Hypostatic Union or are the findings of the Council of Chalcedon(sp) also rejected by your sect?
You need to stand where you can hear what comes out the other side of their mouths...
As this Catholic chart shows at post 467, Jesus is God...The Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God...
If Mary is the Mother of God, Mary is the Mother of all three...
You said you are not the Church...I agreed...Your Church is a conglomerate of the Catholic priestly class, and the writings (real or supposed) of people you call your Church Fathers...
And 'that' is not the body of Christ...
I am the church, a small c, the body of Jesus Christ...If you can lay claim to being a member of that church, why are you a Catholic???
Do you believe there is a visible Church?
This was pretty false and attacking Luther with no reason
Stirring up trouble needlessly, deliberately amongst the Bretheren is not a fruit of Holy Spirit.
Actually we Christians have always believed in the Trinity, 3 distinct hypostases
Why don't you believe this?
Interesting...then you go on to say What is my philosophy???
You're not a Catholic so that was a non sequitor
Mr. Hallam, in his History of the English Constitution', had remarked, as an extenuating circumstance of [Queen] Elizabeth's persecution [of the Catholics], that no woman, so far as he remembered, was put to death. That his memory was in this instance at fault has been already pointed out by Dr. Lingard (vol. vi. p. 344, note). Three women were, in fact, executed, and others sentenced to death, and reprieved only to linger or die in prison. Margaret Ward was condemned to die for assisting a priest to escape from Bridewell. She was offered her liberty if she would go to the Protestant church, and on refusing these terms, was hanged at Tyburn. Mrs. Line was tried for her life before Chief-Justice Popham for entertaining a priest in her house, and was flogged and then hanged. Mrs. Wells, for the same cause, received sentence of death, but died in prison. Anne Tesse and Bridget Maskew were condemned to be burnt alive, but after lingering for several years in gaol, were set at liberty by James I. More famous, however, than any of these is the name of Margaret Margaret Clitherow, of whose charity, good works, and heroic death we fortunately possess a full contemporary account, drawn up by her director, the Rev. John Mush. Her history is but briefly told in the Memoirs of Bishop Challoner, who simply says she refused to plead, and was ‘pressed’ to death according to law. As, however, this barbarous mode of execution is now little understood or forgotten, the story shall be here given in the words of Mr. Mush, to whom Dr. Challoner himself refers us.
“About eight of the clock the Sheriffs came to her, and she being ready expecting them, having trimmed up her head with new inkle, and carrying on her arm the new habit of linen with inkle strings, which she had prepared to bind her hands, went cheerfully to her marriage, as she called it, dealing her alms in the street, which was so full of people that she could scarce pass by them. She went barefoot and barelegged, her gown loose about her. Fawcet, the Sheriff, made haste and said, ‘Come away, Mrs. Clitheroe.’ The martyr answered merrily, ‘Good Master Sheriff, let me deal my poor alms before I now go, for my time is but short.’ They marvelled all to see her joyful countenance. The place of execution was the Tolbooth, six or seven yards distance from the prison. There were present at her martyrdom the two Sheriffs of York, Fawcet and Gibson, Frost, a minister, Fox, Mr. Cheeke's kinsman, with another of his men, the four sergeants which had hired certain beggars to do the murther, three or four men, and four women.
The martyr coming to the place, kneeled her down, and prayed to herself. The tormentors bade her pray with them, and they would pray with her. The martyr denied, and said, ‘I will not pray with you, and you shall not pray with me; neither will I say Amen to your prayers, nor shall you to mine.’ Then they all willed her to pray for the Queen's Majesty. The martyr began in this order : First, in the hearing of them all, she prayed for the Catholic Church, then for the Pope's Holiness, Cardinals, and other Fathers which have charge of souls, and then for all Christian princes. At which words the tormentors interrupted her, and willed her not to put her Majesty among that company; yet the martyr proceeded in this order: ‘And especially for Elizabeth, Queen of England, that God move her to the Catholic Faith, and that after this mortal life she may receive the blessed joys of heaven; for I wish as much good,’ quoth she, ‘to her Majesty's soul as to mine own.’ Sheriff Gibson, abhorring the cruel fact, stood weeping at the door. Then said Fawcet, ‘Mrs. Clitheroe, you must remember and confess that you die for treason.’ The martyr answered, ‘No, no, Mr. Sheriff; I die for the love of my Lord Jesu;’ which last words she spake with a loud voice. Then Fawcet commanded her to put off her apparel, ‘For you must die,’ said he, ‘naked, as judgment was given and pronounced against you.’. . .
The women took off her clothes and put upon her the long habit of linen. Then very quietly she laid her down upon the ground, her face covered with a handkerchief, the linen habit being placed over her as far as it could reach, all the rest of her body being naked. The door was laid upon her, her hands she joined towards her face. Then the Sheriff said, ‘Nay, you must have your hands bound.’ The martyr put forth her hands over the door still joined. Then two sergeants parted them, and with the inkle strings which she had prepared for that purpose bound them to two posts, so that her body and her arms made a perfect cross. They willed her again to ask the Queen's Majesty's forgiveness and to pray for her. The martyr said she had prayed for her. They also willed her to ask her husband's forgiveness. The martyr said, ‘ If ever I have offended him, but for my conscience, I ask him forgiveness.’
After this they laid weight upon her, which, when she first felt, she said, ‘Jesu! Jesu! Jesu! have mercy upon me!’ which were the last words which she was heard to speak. She was in dying one quarter of an hour. A sharp stone, as much as a man's fist, was put under her back ; upon her was laid a quantity of seven or eight hundredweight at the least [406 Kgs/896 lbs], which breaking her ribs, caused them to burst forth of the skin.
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