Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Protoevangelium of James
“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
“And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’” (ibid., 8–9).
“And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’” (ibid., 15).
“And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’” (ibid.).
Origen
“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
“And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
Leporius
“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I
“His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained” (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
True enough.
However, I think y’all—and I really mean a huge proportion of RC’s on FR and in the general population—
SERIOUSLY AND OUTRAGEOUSLY MINIMIZE
even seem utterly blind to
the DEGREE and comprehensiveness
to which
THE VATICAN
and the culture the Vatican propagates, embellishes, promotes, encourages, flaunts . . . etc. etc. etc.
aids, abets, trumpets, applauds, exalts
EXACTLY THOSE OUTRAGEOUS PERSPECTIVES CITED SO ABUNDANTLY IN FERRARO.
And then, when Proddys point to Scripture and say
NO! NO!
There’s this hastey pretense of a retreat declaring . . .
oh but THAT’S not in the Catechism
or
But you don’t understand . . . . we REALLY mean . . .
or
But that doesn’t qualify under our 101 shades of ‘worship’
or
that’s private interpretation [except when you’re in the INGROUP and we are exalting in our exclusivity, idolatries and blasphemies unabandonedly]
Gag.
I’m beginning to think y’all really ought to get out more.
It is as though the whole vast Vatican Cult culture
lives in some gigantic cloister somewhere quite removed from reality and particularly from any
candid view of themselves that the rest of the world sees quite routinely.
The INSTITUTIONAL BLINDNESS [actually a technical term in Org Dev circles] is shocking in degree, breadth and depth.
I used to love that song. . . . when I was in college and pretending to learn French.
I understand.
However, Scripture says . . . honor to whom honor is due . . .
and being The Lord’s scribe is an honorable office that you frequently fill very faithfully.
Thanks for the honor of being able to share such Lord’s Wisdom through you a bit more broadly.
Shocking as it may be to some . . . or perhaps even sacriligious . . .
I drive by ST Mary’s frequently.
And, I don’t have any big problem praying in a quiet remotely Christian place regardless of the label on the door or church yard.
However, I wouldn’t want to be out of order and would want to respect as much as conscience would allow—the basic parameters involved . . . so . . .
Are you saying I’d have to believe in the REAL PRESENCE to pray in the chapel?
Or could I go in, sit in a back pew and pray quietly and leave when finished?
Particularly if I promised not to pray loudly in tongues, roll in the asile or hang from the chandeliers?
well, I persist because as I saw you were interested in possible errors in Marian doctrines, I’m sure you would be interested in the outright blasphemies of Jesse Duplantis. More critically, as you like all care for Quix, it would be good to help him realise these blasphemies
You can pray in tongues -- we're not Calvinists who consider that to be impossible -- we know some of these are from God.
hanging from the chandeliers would be a no-no, as you could injure yourself. Ditto rolling
Particularly if I promised not to pray loudly in tongues, roll in the asile or hang from the chandeliers?
Seriously though, I take our elderly cousins to Mass all the time and no one ever objects. Of course I do not take part in the cup and bread because the Church notice tells non members to refrain.
OK. Good. Thanks.
Will have to check it out when I’m driving by with some time.
What are you talking about? mlizzy's post in 2343 was to opusatfr, not to you and you can freely pray in the chapel. Just respect the peace and the place as per how we pray -- just as we would do the same on visiting your place of worship
And promise not to enter their confessional phone booth. ;)
But since born again believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit, we pray where ever we are as He’s always with us so He always hears and answers us no matter where we are.
LOL.
When Hinn says something other than Scripture, I think the most charitable thing someone could do is stuff a dirty sock in his mouth.
Or bopp him on the head harder than he bops congregants on their head. Hideous stuff, imho.
I don’t know what seem to chronically driven him off the rails so much . . . but one would think that someone whom God HAS USED as much as him—would either listen to God better about himself or get some mentors or other brothers help him get healed, cleansed, delivered . . . more whole in Jesus before he continued his ministry efforts.
The evident arrogance preventing such submissiveness is probably more hazard to Biblical ministry than the other outrageous junk.
Aw c'mon...Can't you post a paragraph or even write one yourself instead of linking me to a book???
And then again, Catholic clergy feel differently about most or all verses of scripture written in plain speech...
True. True.
However . . . quiet “Christian” places are not overly plentiful.
Besides . . . it might be an occasion to pray for those associated with the location with a bit more focus and awareness.
There is no biblical basis for your communion of Saints...Guess that's why it takes a few small novels to articulate what's not found in the scriptures...
Yes, in the teaching, but more because you can reach out to our friend Quix. The blasphemies of Jesse Duplantis etc. are so horrendous and if you can reach out to Quix and help him move away from this con-man, that’s good.
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