Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
“You’re making an accusation so tell us who you are accusing of saying that...”
Well, for starters, not you because your beliefs are never stated that I can discern. Saying “I believe the Scriptures” is about as helpful as saying “I believe in washing machines.”
It’s always “not Catholic” so that leaves you out of the conversation.
Only arround Amarillo......
I don’t have much trouble subscribing to that description—except for the “God-bearer” part. I’d say “Jesus-The Christ-God’s Son-Creator-God bearer,” if I had to put similar words to it.
The slick and not so subtle insinuation that Mary mothered God the Father is intolerable to most of us Proddys and requires an emphatic distinction otherwise.
In my earlier that I guess your post is responding to . . .
I’m merely articulating that
1. Christ CREATOR GOD would not logically FIT within His mortal human frame absolutely 100% of all of His . . .
and there words fail . . .
. . . all of His . . . being . . . fullness . . . completeness . . . Majesty . . . Glory . . . etc. etc. etc.
Any notion otherwise is absurd, to me.
To me, that understanding does NOT take away from Christ being fully God and fully man apart from sin.
It merely notes that the fully God part cannot fully fit in the fully man part.
It would be like pouring—trying to contain the Pacific into a thimble. Only worse.
Does that mean that I think that Jesus Creator God sent his little toenail to die on the Cross?
NOT AT ALL.
I just think we have to humbly realize that we finite minded ones CANNOT GRASP 100% OF ALL ASPECTS OF THE INCARNATION. And that certainly we do not have words to articulate 100% of all aspects of the INCARNATION.
I certainly believe that in all respects that relate to our Redemption, operant and necessary understanding; our RELATIONSHIP with the INCARNATE CHRIST . . . it is quite functional and fitting to . . .
kind of pretend that all of Jesus The Christ was running around loose in sandles in a mortal body 2000 years ago in Israel.
I’m just convinced that there was far too much of Him that didn’t fit that thimble sized God-container of His mortal body.
It is interesting . . . a number of Heavenly Visit experiencers have begun to intimate if not fairly straightforwardly say that they know that The physical Christ they are relating to at a given time in Heaven is or may well be but one manifestation of the Risen Christ. That other individuals in other parts of Heaven are also having some ONE ON ONE time with The Incarnate Christ—in Person.
That should not surprise us—God being Omnipresent.
And, there is some intimation that on occasion—maybe for some grand Heavenly worship time or other ceremony—there’s only one manifestation of THE INCARNATE RISEN CHRIST.
God being God does have HIS OPTIONS, after all!
My main point was that . . . Whatever portion of JESUS THE CHRIST’S WHOLENESS comprised His humanness—before or after His Incarnation . . . that after His Ascension—for certain—His humanness HAD to comprise a rather infitesimal PORTION of His Wholeness.
It is almost like the Star Trek Movie with V-Ger where the galactic sized computer created a female human (seemingly) INTERFACE UNIT to relate to the “carbon units.”
Christ’s human form was MORE than a human interface unit.
There was clearly some encompassing mystery with CREATOR GOD LITERALLY DYING ON THE CRUEL CROSS.
THAT fulcrum of all reality is still beyond our finite mortal mental grasp, imho.
Did Father God with Christ in concert somehow condense major portions of Christ’s GODLINESS into the human form on the Cross like a bit of coal on a super technological anvil being turned into a diamond? Who can say.
Certainly in key respects—all the key respects—Jesus Creator God died on The Cross.
Nevertheless, I still contend that even at that moment—there were still infinite portions, proportions of JESUS THE CHRIST CREATOR GOD that just did not FIT within that mortal body on The Cross. There was just too much “left over” to fit.
All this relates to Mary, imho, in these respects:
1. Christ as RISEN MESSIAH, CREATOR GOD is not at all beholden to;
per se concerned with;
subject to;
preoccupied with (more than any other individual);
fawning over;
brow-beaten by;
manipulated by;
etc. etc. etc.
MARY.
Certainly NOT more than John the Baptist who HE CALLED GREATER THAN ALL BORN OF WOMEN . . . AND YET THE LEAST OF THOSE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.
In the Heavenly context—Mary
is MERELY
AN ALSO RAN, AN ALSO OBEYED.
The human/mortal/mother-son aspect has faded to a microscopic/sub-atomic aspect of Christ’s Heavenly Being and functioning.
Mary may make more of it than Christ—because she’s a much huger percentage human—even as a partially glorified human. But even for her—her historic role cannot be of great focus in her current Heavenly life. SHE HAS MOVED ON.
It’s like
ON THE CROSS—THE FULCRUM OF ALL REALITY PAST PRESENT FUTURE—THE FOCUS OF ALL CREATION—YEARNING FOR REDEMPTION—
CHRIST WAS EVERYTHING OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE. PERIOD.
Yeah, Mummy was at the foot of the cross grief stricken. And, The Compassionate One took care of her with John The Beloved’s concurrence.
But there were infinitely larger things going on.
The same with the Ascended Lord of all.
In a sense, He did His human sabbatical ultimate Sacrifice thing and it’s now, back to work.
He slipped back into HIS FULL AND EVEN MORE FULL MAJESTY AND ROLE at the right hand of The Father and the REDEMPTION PROCESS has been progressing apace ever since.
And Mary has taken up her role teaching aborted babies etc.
All is well, fitting, in proper place and Heavenly.
But His mortal humanness does NOT jerk Him around by Mummy’s apron strings to the faintest degree.
His humanness facilitates infinitely His relating to glorified mortals that He died for. It does NOT SUBTRACT FROM NOR MANIPULATE AT ALL HIS INFINITE MAJESTY GOD-NESS.
Words fail but that’s probably as close as I can come to articulating what I feel and think about such.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
WELL PUT.
You’re triggering tears in my eyes.
I have a similar response.
Though I have it printed to the left of my computer screen.
I have, in prayer, quibbled with Him some about his . . . how to put it . . . kind of firm gaze.
I’ve wanted it more sweetly compassionate or some such.
But every time, I get the sense back—from Him:
“NO—THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT. BELIEVERS NEED TO KNOW THAT I AM ALSO FIRM AND EXACTING. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO THE FATHER. THERE IS NO OTHER LIFE EXCEPT IN ME. WISHY-WASHY-LUKE-WARM BELIEF-ISM, ACTIONS—ARE NOT TRULY CHRIST-LIKE. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW—THEY *MUST* TAKE UP THEIR CROSS DAILY; DENY THEMSELVES; SERVE ME WHOLEHEARTEDLY. THIS IS ETERNALLY SERIOUS. THIS IS NOT A GAME OF TIDDLDY WINKS OR A CARD GAME OF HEARTS. FOLKS MUST HAVE THIS FOCUS: CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE AND ACT LIKE IT. I AM WELL ABLE AND WILLING TO HELP THEM DO SO. THEY MUST CHOOSE AND THEY MUST CHOOSE TO ACT AS EARNESTLY AS THEY CAN AS LOVE SLAVES OF MINE.”
Hard to articulate all I see and hear in His gaze in that painting but that comes close. Is that contruent with anything you pick up from looking at it?
Maybe its somewhat like a Rorschach. But I don’t quite think so.
AGREED.
Thx Thx.
No.
1600 year old human organization, structure, edifice.
The stats have been posted often and are rigorously attained by one of the best research orgs in the business.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2657209/posts?page=1670#1670
Otherwise, I think your post is well stated with a lot of accurate wisdom.
Welllllll, that’s where I’m from.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:1-5
It should be noted that art (including photography) is merely impression.
A picture of a thing is not the thing. Indeed, accuracy in artistic description often requires much more than technically precise geometric form and color.
And with some subjects it would impossible to achieve accuracy, e.g. God is Love - how can that truth be depicted or conveyed any way other than to actually know Him?
I also wanted to note that as she matures, the girl's art also begins telling a story, e.g. second painting age 16 the "Open Door."
TRUE. TRUE.
THX THX.
2000+ years, Quix, with all the documentation, saints, sinners and bodies along with all the Councils and Church Fathers to prove it.
We will agree to disagree.
"Praise God!!!" is what wells up in my spirit whenever I see that painting.
So mine is not the same as yours nor should it be, He leads us each, individually according to His own will.
INDEED. THX THX.
Much appreciate the post I’m replying to.
WHAT??? Jesus was just a temporary ACTOR? The Incarnation was just some kind of skit in this doctrine?
Seriously Quix, you believe this?
Then, that ‘phase of His life, His mission’ was completed at the Resurrection. And certainly after the Ascension, His mortal human life came to a rather wholesale END.
you're saying that after the Ascension, Jesus's human life came to an end.....
You mean biblical stuff like
and this is what "evangelical Pentecostal Christianity" believes according to your statement Jesse believes in the basic Biblical doctrines of evangelical Pentecostal Christianity?
Of course, we Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans,etc) believe that God is three hypostases but of one substance. We don’t believe that God is three modes, all spirit only — this denies the Incarnation and the Sacrifice. Why would you believe this? it’s a serious question
Then why do you think He offered St. Thomas to poke his fingers in the stigmata?
I think so
I’m not playing the “gotcha” game that so often passes for discussion on the RF.
I know the Presbyterians believe this because I’ve listened to them. As I said, my spouse is Methodist and absolutely believes Christ ascended with his transfigured body, the same body he arose with on the third day.
This is a vitally important tenet of the Christian faith and really needs the input of the mainlines lurking.
This is in the Apostle’s Creed, the Nicene Creed, the resurrected Jesus was taken up to heaven in his resurrected body.
If this is not believed than the belief in exactly what the Incarnation means to us is lost.
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