Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Protoevangelium of James
“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
“And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’” (ibid., 8–9).
“And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’” (ibid., 15).
“And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’” (ibid.).
Origen
“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
“And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
Leporius
“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I
“His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained” (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
Those who do pray to any supposed saint - they are in disobedience. And they expect any prayer to be answered when they start out with disobedience?It is not disobedience because Christ Himself allows the answers to these prayers to take place. There are some 10,000 saints, and thousands upon thousands of documented miracles through their intercessions. Why would Christ allow these miracles if He wasn't promoting (as prayer partners) His saints and His mother?
We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country."
In the first place, I cannot see how a Christian can give away that which he does not own.
The earth [is] the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. – Psalms 24:1
I see consecrating as roughly the equivalent of dedicating, submitting or yielding for a sacred purpose. Certainly the Israelis were to submit to Moses’ leading. Korah and company were held to account for rebelling against Moses (Numbers 16.)
And wives are to submit themselves to their own husbands. That of course does not mean that a wife is to submit herself to men who are not her husband.
Slaves are to submit to their masters, children to the parents, youngers to elders and so on.
And I do perceive that the Catholic Church has carried on with the tradition of submission within the ranks of the members of the Catholic Church. The members are expected to submit to dogma, doctrine, authorities in a hierarchy whether in the flesh or not, etc.
So the submitting to Mary is not surprising to an outsider looking in. But the giving away part is disturbing.
Control is not yielded in consecration - it is in giving. Also, personal responsibility is preserved in consecration.
Obviously no person “owns” his own country such that he could give it to Mary. Nor does he own his wife or his children and so on. Jeepers, he doesn’t even own himself.
God “owns” all that there is – every one and every thing. During our mortal life, we are merely stewards of His property – most particularly our own hearts, minds, souls and bodies.
And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine. His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. – Matthew 25:19-30
In the context of this devotion, the exchanger would be Mary. But it could also be a Bishop, priest, minister, preacher, teacher, etc. Some exchangers I perceive as perilous – e.g. Mohammed - some obviously so – e.g. Jim Jones.
As a bakery shop kid, I have no exchangers. I consecrate all that I am to God Himself:
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:3-5
Don't you already know all you need to know about the Catholic Church? Did you not intimate as much many times?
Far be it from me to enter discussion with someone who knows what I'm going to say before I say it AND knows why it's wrong, too!
If I were as certain of the superiority of my knowledge, wit, wisdom, piety, virtue, and all graces, unless I received a directive that dancing on the faces of the vanquished was an act pleasing to God, I would just rest quietly with those of my opinion and thank God that I was not as ignorant as other people, "and even as this Catholic ....".
if they can hear or not - is not important.
I regret wasting your time, but, you see, I did not bring the question up. Someone who shares your opinions wondered how it could be said that they might hear prayers. Since the question was asked, I made the possible error of thinking someone sought a discussion about it. Maybe you might inform Hoss on how unimportant his question was.
I guess you didn’t read what I wrote - I’m done. If you still have questions after reading what God wrote about it - I can’t help you. Either one believes Him or they disobey Him. And that brings us back to the beginning and Adam/Eve - nothing new under the sun.
VERY EASILY because I KNOW the TRUTH - which catholicism is void of. God's Word vs. catechism/man made teachings?Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Here's a lineup of our readings tomorrow. Do any of these ring a bell? Catholicism is not void of the truth. How much more can God's Word be proclaimed than to have Him there in the Flesh? "This is my body ..." --Luke 22:19
God, not what you believe Scripture says, is the final authority. I know you tend to confuse those.
practice idolatry
Idolatry is confusing something something finite like the words of the KJV - especially one's personal interpretation of them - for the infinite, God.
One who does this practrices idolatry.
Do you believe that there are a host of saints living on earth right now, in their earthly bodies?
These prayers and supplications to Mary get much worse than this, Alamo-Girl. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
If you’re asking do I believe in the Church Militant, of course. Again, all part of the Mystical Body of Christ and in Communion with the previously discussed Church Triumphant.
If you believe in intercessory prayer and you believe that we are part of one family or one body of Christ and that what we do for others and ourselves, good or ill, affects the whole, you are close to understanding the Communion of Saints.
If you understand stand that we do not cease to be part of this family of this One Body of Christ when we pass from this existence on earth, then you are even closer to understanding what is meant by the Communion of Saints.
Now, if you enter into the Holy Eucharist in the Communion of Saints, you begin to understand Jesus’ prayer in the garden and the significance of Catholic worship.
Thanks much.
I was certain that Genesis was so . . . wasn’t sure about the rest.
I don’t know if you know, or not, the Bible Code professors/scholars . . . have analyzed Genesis many different ways with computers—and its language—use of words and use of letters is EXTREMELY ATYPICAL.
It also seems to be the richest trove of authentic codes of all the books—even of the rest of the Torah.
I hope to get to more substantive replies to several of your posts before I go to sleep tonight.
This one . . . comes across as extra weak-—particularly for you.
LOL! More than I care to count. I spent 2/3 or my life in the RCC! Please - save yourself from teaching me what I left in the dust!I'm the opposite. Thirty-three years with Luther, 27 as a Catholic. :)
Here's the title:
And it carries the official sanctions of:
ni•hil ob•stat
n.
1. Roman Catholic Church An attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals.
2. Official approval, especially of an artistic work.
WITH RICHARD CARDINAL CUSHING’S IMPRIMATUR
Let me track down the brief portion of quotes upthread . . .
Here they are:
However, as we've seen through a variety of sources--a pile of them in Ferraro's manual about the Rosary--the Roman Catholic et al/Vatican Edifice disagrees with a lot of the claims of RC's hereon to the contrary.
p.32
.
[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .
p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.
5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.
6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.
"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor
p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence
p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18
p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"
p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.'
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]
p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue."
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]
9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
.
[Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]
p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.'
.
[Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]
5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
.
[QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]
p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."
p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"
p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."
Thx for your well put contributions on this thread.
LUB
Perhaps you noticed earlier on this thread that one of the Catholic posters was pitching a tantrum about the fact that "Protestants aren't really chr*stians." These are the people who tut-tut over the "narrow-minded fundies."
Quix, I really, truly advise you and all other Fundamentalist Protestants to seriously consider leaving the chr*stian religion altogether and let hypocrites like this have it all to themselves. But unfortunately, you're probably too old--and certainly too stubborn--to consider such a thing!
Insults aside, from your post it seems you not only confuse Scripture for God, counting it, not God, as the final authority, but that you appear to hold your interpretation of Scripture is likewise perfect.
The final authority revealed in your post is self.
The post also illustrates a distinct bent toward Gnosticism.
Thanks again for your illustrative reply.
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