[Ghost of Philip Marlowe]

I agree with most of what you’ve written, but I think you’ve made some sweeping generalizations.

Not everyone and not all believers and denominations are based on “replacement theology.” Most I know believe what Paul said in Romans, that the grace that God offered the Jews because of their heritage was expanded through Jesus to the gentiles. That’s not a replacement, but an expansion, an inclusiveness based upon accepting Jesus’ life, sacrifice, and death.

I don’t think you can blame Hitler on Luther. The NAZIs, like their counterpart in today’s left-wing of the Democrat Party, will use anything, anyone and any situation to consolidate and expand their power. Hitler used the Church for as long as it served him, then threw it under the bus when Christians like Bonhoeffer began to object (one of those “objections” taking the form of an assassination attempt).

Camping has been deceived by Satan, the great deceiver, the great accuser. Jesus stated very plainly that WE do not know the hour of His return because even HE does not know the hour of His return, that only God the father knows that hour.

For Camping or any other dooms-dayer to say, “He’s coming on Saturday” is one of the most blatant and arrogant of false prophecy.

I completely agree with your advice to drop the dogma, drop the denomination, and study the Bible both as its own book and in historical context to understand what God is telling each of us through his inspired writings.

I don’t know what everyone else is doing today. But I’m going to cut my lawn so that it looks nice enough to put the grill on TOMORROW and then I’m going to cook some steaks...TOMORROW.

[marbren]

Replacement theology is a lie of satan.

[anniegetyourgun]

Per the plan of God, Jesus is coming again for His bride. Say hallelujah!

[RegulatorCountry]

Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler.

Not sure where to start with this, but it's not as if Martin Luther was full of love and charity toward Jews prior to his break with Rome. He was a leading figure in the Reformation. He retained some beliefs that he acquired as a Catholic. He rejected those he believed to have been not Biblically supported.

The collection of smaller states that later became Germany did not exist as a united nation in Luther's time. There were states where Jews settled and were treated reasonably well by medieval standards. There were those that weren't so hospitable. Taken on the whole, it's unlikely that the Germany to come was any more or any less antisemite than other nations on the European continent or the British Isles. Recall the Jews were expelled from Spain by the Catholic king and queen well before Luther's time. Expelled from England as well. Luther was a product of this environment.

Then, to leap forward four entire centuries and to lay blame for Hitler at Luther's feet is just bizarre. Hitler needed an üntermenschen, a scapegoat. Historically speaking, in Europe, this had always been the Jews and so he dusted that ancient libel off and used it again. Hitler was raised Catholic, not Lutheran.

But, Hitler rejected even Catholicism by his early 20's and became a political radical. His ideology was socialism. His religion, if it could be said that he had one above and beyond power, would have been occult-tinged Teutonic paganism. This is amply documented. He sought to co-opt and use the church, not because he believed it, but because he simultaneously wanted to destroy it, and to take it over and remake it into something alien that served his purpose.

To tie this back in to replacement theology, the belief that the Church supplanted Israel or even became Israel in God's promise, well, it's an old belief as you pointed out. It's a more Catholic belief than a Protestant one, but there are numerous Protestant denominations that accept the belief to this day.

However, even identifying the falsehood of replacement theology fell to Protestants after the Reformation, so blaming Luther for actions 400 years into the future, for failing to reject a widespread belief that existed a priori is very misleading. That it was error only came to light as a result of the actions of Luther and other Reformation figures. Those who openly and loudly denounce it today are almost exclusively Protestant or certainly would be identified as such by others.

[count-your-change]

The Rejectionist theology has had proved to be a disappointment over the years as much as the announcements of the popular notions of “The Rapture”. Little wonder as it is confused about and deliberately ignorant of the Scriptures.

It's as though they hear the question asked of Jesus,
‘Are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?’ and they answer Yes!

Th nation of Israel in the Middle East today is not the Israel of the Bible despite Rejectionist political and religious theology.

[ravenwolf]

I don,t know what is meant by camping being a victim of replacement theology. but as far as i can understand it i agree.

The same lie has Gods sabbath changed to the first day of the week instead of the last, and also the tithes that went into the store houses that were to be used for the governing of Israel are now going into the church funds to make the churches rich and to make some fat preacher for hire rich.

You,re right, we need to keep our eye on Israel as it is very much alive and still in Gods hands.

[sueuprising]

The church is the bride of Christ and national Israel has nothing to do with it. The Jews are Jews because they have rejected Christ, if they did not reject Christ they would be Christians. In the very early church, of course, you had Jews following Christ but after the destruction of Jerusalem, those believing Jews were now wholly Chrisitan. How anyone can say that Israel, a nation of unbelievers, are still the chosen of God is mind boggling to me. It seems that all this insistence on Israel as having some Christian significance comes from those whose faith rests in pseudo Biblical prophecies. And Hitler was not influenced by Luther for heaven’s sake. Hitler, a Roman Catholic at birth, was influenced by the Darwinian edict of natural selection and the promise of evolution.

[Campion]

If Camping is a "victim" of "replacement theology," how come everyone else in the covenant theology camp thinks he's a nut, not to mention grossly heretical?

If Camping is a "victim" of his theology, he's a victim of sola scriptura and personal interpretation.

[DaveMSmith]

Camping is no victim. The victims here are his listeners who cashed in on their life savings following this guy.

So, he didn't take the state of Israel into account? He was busy making his numbers work for folks he could connect with. He's been putting this out for awhile now -- why hasn't any Christian 'leader' stepped forward before this week to denounce him publicly?

Camping just brought the whole end times obsessed crowd to the logical conclusion: A big disappointment.

[onedoug]

On to the next end of the world....

[onthelookout777]

“Replacement theology is a lie.”
_______________________

DITTOS.

[Alex Murphy]

For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. ....The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.

No Reformed, amillennial or postmillennial Christian that I know of believes that they're replacing the Jews in God's eschatology. In fact, it's the modern dispensationalist who thinks that the Jews have been replaced by the church until the church disappears in the rapture!

According to English and every other dispensationalist, the Church has replaced Israel until the rapture. The unfulfilled promises made to Israel are not fulfilled until after the Church is taken off the earth. Thomas Ice, one of dispensationalism’s rising stars, admits that the Church replaces Israel this side of the rapture: “We dispensationalists believe that the church has superseded Israel during the current church age, but God has a future time in which He will restore national Israel ‘as the institution for the administration of divine blessings to the world.’”
-- From the thread Answering the "Replacement Theology" Critics (Part 1)

“...the very category of ‘replacement’ is foreign to Reformed theology because it assumes a dispensational, Israeleo-centric way of thinking. It assumes that the temporary, national people was, in fact, intended to be the permanent arrangement.”
-- From the thread Replacing “Replacement” Theology

"The historical premillennialist's view interprets some prophecy in Scripture as having literal fulfillment while others demand a semi-symbolic fulfillment. As a case in point, the seal judgments (Revelation 6) are viewed as having fulfillment in the forces in history (rather than in future powers) by which God works out his redemptive and judicial purposes leading up to the end. Rather than the belief of an imminent return of Christ, it is held that a number of historical events (e.g., the rise of the Beast and the False Prophet) must take place before Christ's Second Coming. This Second Coming will be accompanied by the resurrection and rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18); this will inaugurate the millennial reign of Christ. The Jewish nation, while being perfectly able to join the church in the belief of a true faith in Christ, has no distinct redemptive plan as they would in the dispensational perspective. The duration of the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:1-6) is unsure: literal or metaphorical."
-- From the thread Four Views on the Millennium

To believe [the world will wax worse and worse and lawlessness will increase until the Great Tribulation], you must conclude that either A) Transformed lives don't accomplish jack squat when working in groups, meaning groups can't be transformed B) God doesn't plan on transforming lives in the future, or b) The "transformed life" is but a temporary phenomena.
-- Alex Murphy, November 9, 2007

And Jesus answering saith unto them, "Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall watch the mountain groweth before him until it fills the whole earth, even unto crushing all the saints beneath it, yet yeah verily ye will declareth victory over whatsoever ye saith until death.

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and keep ye deluding yourselves until that day when I will return unto you and finally accomplish Myself what ye could not do in My Name."
-- Mark 11:22-24, Pretrib Dispensational Version

Catholic Cleric: Jesus Cancelled Biblical ‘Chosen People’
CANDIDLY SPEAKING: EVANGELICALS: AN APPRECIATION
Sibley: NCC wrong on Christian Zionism
Replacing “Replacement” Theology
Answering the "Replacement Theology" Critics (Part 1)
Are There Consequences When Harming Israel?
Hagee denies belief in 'dual covenant theology'
Four Views on the Millennium
Who Really Stands with Israel?
Evangelicals seeing the error of 'replacement theology'

[Lee N. Field]

replacement theology.

"Shibboleth!"

(Use of the term "replacement theology" is a reliable marker. Dispensationalist hedgehogs use it, noone else.)

[Salvation]

I am currently reading this book. A much different story than Camping's

BTW, this book was written in 1881; you wouldn't believe how accurate it is!

 

Reading this book was one of the greatest graces of my life!"
— St. Thérèse of Lisieux

In the late nineteenth century, Father Charles Arminjon, a priest from the mountains of southeastern France, assembled his flock in the town cathedral to preach a series of conferences to help them turn their thoughts away from this life’s mean material affairs—and toward the next life’s glorious spiritual reward. His wise and uncompromising words deepened in them the spirit of recollection that all Christians must have: the abiding conviction that heavenly aims, not temporal enthusiasms, must guide everything we think, say, and do.

When Father Arminjon’s conferences were later published in a book, many others were able to reap the same benefit—including fourteen-year-old Thérèse Martin, then on the cusp of entering the Carmelite convent in Lisieux. Reading it, she says, “plunged my soul into a happiness not of this earth.” Young Thérèse, filled with a sense of “what God reserves for those who love him, and seeing that the eternal rewards had no proportion to the light sacrifices of life,” copied out numerous passages and memorized them, “repeating unceasingly the words of love burning in my heart.”

Now the very book that so inspired the Little Flower is available for the first time in English.

Let the pages of The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life fill you with the same burning words of love, with the same ardent desire to know God above all created things, that St. Thérèse gained from them. Let them also enrich your understanding of certain teachings of the Faith that can often seem so mysterious, even frightening:

• The signs that will precede the world’s end
• The coming of the Antichrist, and how to recognize him
• The Judgment and where it may send us: heaven, hell, and purgatory
• Biblical end-times prophecy: how to read it and not be deceived

  Jesus commands us to be ever-watchful for his return, and ever-mindful that we have no lasting city on earth. The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life is an invaluable aid to inculcating in your spirit that heavenly orientation, without which true human happiness cannot be found—in this world or the next.

[Belteshazzar]

Having read through the 200 or so responses, I am left with one reaction: What an incredibly toxic and pointless thread.

[jetson]

If you listen to the old fool you can tell he is senile. He swears by creationism and during his talks quotes examples of man thousands of years ago ( before Christ). The guy makes no sense. The uneducated follow him, giving him their hard earned money.

[The Theophilus]

If you were a Christian, then I don't understand the point of your post. This is clearly a self-adoration seeking flame-bait post of yours. Let start of with the Title. Since Camping is expecting a "rapture" that clearly removes him from any of the historical teachings on eschatology by the Classical Pre, Post Mil or Amil categories. The "rapture" as understood and taught today is a modern fabrication dated back to Darby from the same birthplace, culture and time as we get Evolution and Marxism, and teachings on the "rapture" are radical departures from thousands of years of orthodoxy. So Camping's eschatology has no foundations in the Bible as it has been understood by millennia of the world's greatest theologians.

Second, your title is an insult based on hatred and ignorance - which is not something that would come from a Christian but is typical of the Church-hating modern American Religion and Futurist Enthusiast. The term "Replacement Theology" has been made popular by the Reprobate and false teacher John Hagee and has been lapped up uncritically by those who have a psychological disorder that is in a large part narcissistic and misanthropic.

None of the mainstream eschatologies say that the Church has "replaced" Israel (with the exception of your faith system), rather all recognize that the Church is made up of all people, of every nation who have faith (Gal 3:29; Eph 2:11-22). That is, according to the Scriptures, the whole of spiritual Israel is made up of Jews and Gentiles alike who have been elected into faith in our LORD. Therefore it is not "replacement" rather it is "realized" or "expanded". To deny that, as your cult does, is to deny the Gospel and the Doctrines of Redemption.

Ironically, for you mockers who cry "Replacementarian", it is you have replaced Israel with yourselves! According to the Christian material publishing industry, the second most popular passage in Scripture used as props for posters, jewelry, calendars, etc. after John 3:16, is Jeremiah 29:11 "I know the plans I have for you..." (NIV) Another in the top twenty-five is 2 Chr 7:14 "If My people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray..." The latter passage is far more interesting as it is almost the motto silk-screened upon your white surrender flags. In both cases, the promises and advice are unique to the ethnic Jews and are not transferred to you or to Christians or to the united States as often as 2 Chr is often thought to mean. Therefore you folks look silly screaming "Replacementarian!" at those who believe in "Expansion Theology" while you yourselves have hypocritically replaced Israel with your own vanity and ego.

But lets set aside the lies, insults and hypocrisy that alone make up the title of your vanity post and look at the body of your rant.

Out of the box, the first statement is an outright lie, and proof that you know absolutely nothing about Harold Camping's strange teachings. That could be remedied by a minute's worth of google-ing, but the underlying narcissism and desire to insult exceeds honesty and truth. Camping believes the Church Age has already ended. Its Dispensationalism that invented the concept of multiple "Ages" and "Dispensations". Amils and Post Mils have always recognized the Biblical Two Ages ("this age and the age to come") taught by Jesus Christ and the apostles. Your cult has rejected that and replaced our LORD's teachings with 3, 4, 7 or even 8 different "dispensations" (depends on the teacher for how many). Camping's assertion of cessation of the "Church Age" means that Camping does not believe in Post Millennialism, or as you spitefully and wrongly call it "Replacement Theology", but buys into certain elements of your faith system - dittos with "Rapture" which is not a concept taught in any of the traditional and orthodox eschatologies but is a distinguishing characteristic of yours.

Its your crowd that has the history of date-setting, and Harold Camping is doing the same thing illuminaries of the Dispensationalist movement have been doing for the last century. Outside the foolishness of date-setting, or even age-setting, which is the bastard child of date-setting and extremely popular among Dysfunctionalists, the offensive nature of Camping's message is how its based deeply in allegory and numerology - two items rejected by conservative reformed theologians but hermeneutics that are embraced by Dispensationalists. It is your crowd that views the Bible as a puzzle book and crystal ball that only special "spirit filled" sorcerers can interpret. Its your crowd that bought by the warehouse load "The Bible Codes", "Prophecies in the Psalms", "88 Reasons Why the Rapture is in 1988" and other magic books and tools to transform the Futurist into a modern day seer, prophet and office-cooler oracle.

Looking back at the hypocrisy of calling others "Replacementarians" while you yourself actively replacing Israel with yourself, the American Religion, the united States et al. Your crowd has often called Amos 3:7 a passage that is "relevant to me" in that it states "Surely the LORD God does nothing, unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.". This passage has been used by several prominent Dispensationalist who are shilling their Prophecy books - well, guess who else uses literal/replacement hermeneutic to that passage? Your spiritual cousin Harold Camping! A passage he sites to justify his ability to know the date of the "rapture".

So let's review: Dispensationalists and Camping both believe in a Dispensations, Rapture, date/age setting, numerology, allegorizing the Scriptures, wooden literalism in most cases, hustling prophecy books and conferences to make a buck and gather groupies, and replacing Israel with himself.

It seems to me, that y'all have far more in common with Camping's Eschatology than Christians do. So why are you upset about his date setting when the heroes of your faith have been doing so for generations? Is it because he doesn't share the American's Religion rejection of the Doctrines of Grace? Is it because, as John MacArthur has pointed out in his book that the American Religion prefers earthly living over heavenly living and Camping is calling for shutting down the orgy earlier than y'all want? Is it because he is taking your modus opererandi to the next level and it makes your system look as ridiculous to you as it has been to Christondom and the world?

A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.

Your narcissism and vanity greatly exceeds your spiritual knowledge. The brash arrogance that you exhibit here - daring to call yourself smarter, enlightened and spiritually superior to men who have forgotten more theology than you will ever know, and then topping it off by calling them liars and deceivers only certifies your hatred and contempt for the Church and the Saints of God.

In this post of yours, you successfully demonstrated the exact opposite attribute of a child of our LORD's Kingdom by slandering the Church, writing Jesus Christ and His bride out of the OT, insulting and accusing pillars of the faith as liars and deceivers and raising your ignorant and insulting self as the paragon of spiritual knowledge and theological accuracy. I would expect nothing less from a demon from Hell.

Repent

[Mr. K]

well.... 9:30PM ... still here

[Hot Tabasco]

Camping is a victim of replacement theology

Camping is a victim?????????? ROFLMAO-CGU.......

So what does that make his followers who have either sold off everything they owned or gave it away, collateral damage?

It's likely Camping made a fortune back in 1994 by his then EOW prediction and he's likely made a fortune by this bogus act also.

He has done more harm to the Christian community by the ridicule he has brought on Believers than any Tammy Fay or Jimmy Swaggert could ever do...........

[marbren]

Hi esquirette here is a thread I started partly due to your wondering about what is going on in another thread. Many views are found here. Preterists and partial preterists have not chimed in much however. God bless you as you seek the truth!