How to Establish Authority in a Church

Catholic Culture ^ | 5/9/11 | Dr. Jeff Mirus

[marshmallow]

I intended to give the poor Protestants a break, but now I read that the Lutherans are imploding or exploding, depending on your point of view. It seems that the two largest Lutheran “churches” in America have broken up, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA).

The first split occurred in the 1960’s and 1970’s after a long battle between resurgent conservatives and liberals, the latter including especially the faculty of Concordia Seminary. The liberal losers in the LCMS moved on to help shape the ELCA in the late 1980’s, but they crafted a self-destructive mode of governance. Insisting on disproportionate minority representation in all governing bodies and committees, the ELCA ultimately shifted power to special interest groups, hastening an inevitable disintegration in the last few years. Meanwhile, the more conservative LCMS seems doomed to be locked in constant theological squabbling, encompassing spiritual, social and political concerns.

A brief survey of what has gone on is available from First Things in Robert Benne’s The Trials of American Lutheranism. One of the key problems in all this is unwittingly raised by Benne when he notes that “the refugees from the first conflict were instrumental in shaping the flawed foundation for the second.” After all, when it comes to shaping the structure and governance of a “church”, one must surely wonder how—as a purely human enterprise—the foundation could be anything but flawed. What would constitute an unflawed foundation?

Wouldn’t it have to come from God?

The incredible confusion in Protestant circles on this subject is captured nicely in Benne’s final paragraph, as he closes his commentary on the shattered fragments that remain:

These Lutheran perspectives retain crucial importance as distinctive insights into the Great Tradition. They of course are not the whole and should not be taken for the whole. But they do provide flashes of illumination and insight for the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. That is justification enough for their preservation.

Really?

Here we go again with the Great Tradition, which nobody can adequately define. What is part of it and what is not? And once again we meet a sort of ideal but non-existent “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church”, which apparently the Lutherans have been attempting to approximate with flawed foundations by forming or reforming their own “churches”. So how do we know that anything these groups provide qualifies as an “insight”? Which “insights” are to be retained, and which rejected?

Please. My friends, none of this works, and the sad thing is that it should be obvious to anyone capable of basic reflection that none of this works. Protestantism is capable of offering some goods conducive to salvation only to the degree that it continues to cherish what it has inherited from a real and identifiable “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church”. Insofar as it progressively abandons this inheritance, Protestantism has less and less help to offer, less and less “insight” into the relationships between God and man, less and less similarity to what it means to be a church.

The whole matter depends on the basic principles of what we might call Religion 101. Any Revelation which God discloses to us must necessarily include details of the ongoing authority by which that Revelation is to be transmitted and implemented over time. Without this, God has no means of making His Revelation effective; His Word would return to Him void (Is 55:11). The ultimate structure and authority of a Church, if it is to be taken seriously as something which can achieve God’s purpose despite human weaknesses, cannot be drawn from human imagination or fashioned through human debate and compromise. In other words, to avoid being irremediably flawed and inherently self-destructive, the mechanism of authority in a true Church must come from God Himself.

Logically, it would have to, wouldn’t it? Well, wouldn’t it?

[marshmallow]

This is a commentary on this related thread

[fungoking]

“...cannot be drawn from human imagination or fashioned through human debate and compromise. In other words, to avoid being irremediably flawed and inherently self-destructive, the mechanism of authority in a true Church must come from God Himself.”

human imagination such as...
praying to saints
deify Mary
priest not marrying
purgatory
infallibility of the Pope
no priesthood of the believer
good works necessary to complete salvation

...and many other core teaching that are man-made with no basis in scripture. Let's not even start with the great schism, selling of indulgences, and other historical examples of Church policy arrived through human imagination or fashioned through human debate and compromise. Stones and glass houses.

[Secret Agent Man]

Thank you. Romanism ripping any other denomination given its warts and obvious heterodox theology that it still continues to stand by today, some of it old, some of it much more recent,

holds no water with me and many others.

[Quix]

ACTUALLY
. . .

====================================

1. The RCC did not exist before 300-400 AD.

2. The Old Testament is full of God's dealings with AUTHORITY amongst HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE--THAT HE, HIMSELF, UNARGUABLY SET UP.

3. In relentless case after case--EVERY CASE--sooner or later, the structure and people He established in authority, HE HIMSELF HAD TO FLUSH, TRASH, REPLACE.

4. For the RCC to pretend that the magicsterical political self-righteous power-mongers in Rome have been able for 1600 years to avoid the failings of GOD'S CHOSEN in the Old Testament is hubris, arrogance, haughtiness to the max.

5. It's also DREADFULLY BANKFUPT REALITY TESTING--based on abundant evidence to the opposite.

6. RC's can fantasize that their structure, edifice, their Alice In Wonderland School Of Theology And Reality Mangling has followed in the shoes of the Apostles quite anointedly and more or less infallibly for 1600+ years if they wish to keep their wagon hitched to a very fallen star.

7. However, God has left the building--except--plausibly for some of the scattered Charismatic groups within the Vatican cult.

8. It is the nature of human beings to corrupt all they touch. We must daily haul ourselves and our junk to THE CROSS--not to man's structures.

9. And certainly NOT to the caricatured fantasized Ishtar goddess Mary figure proffered as the one through whom salvation MUST come. What idolatrous blasphemy! Then to pretend that the institution pushing that hideousness on the world is THE institution of God's authority? WHAT HIDEOUSNESS!

10. Even in the best Proddy churches I've been a part of--the anointing and overt manifest Presence of God is a very spotty thing. Leadership has to constantly hold themselves to the cross; walk in humility and be utterly intense in their prayer life and in their walking out Biblical principles and standards in all their relationships.

11. WITHOUT the anointing and manifest Presence of God with some regularity--ALL THAT'S LEFT IS A SHELL--A SHAM--A SOMETIMES white-washed tomb. So what if the Vatican Cult's whitewash has gold gilt and embroidered tapestries to parade about in? Scripture makes clear that it's all a used Kotex in God's eyes and nose.

12. IN GOD'S KINGDOM, AUTHORITY FLOWS CONSTANTLY OUT OF RELATIONSHIP. The gifts and callings of God are without recall. However, AUTHORITY flows out of intimate relationship with God. Otherwise, at best, it's a has been, a shell, a sham, a stench--and usually a brutalizing stench, at that.

13. God is on the brink of trashing a lot of leadership and authority in the Christian Church at large--every group. Probably no denomination, cult or group will be left anything like the same, when God has finished such a discipline and move.

14. He is going to draw together in some yet unknown ways--all those of every group--who truly hunger after HIM; who truly seek His face and to walk in His Love, humility, Spirit and the blood of Christ--led by His Spirit, His voice, His word.

15. At that point, when an 8 year or even 6 year old child speaks under the anointing of God's Spirit and with God's authority--EVERYONE ADDRESSED had better treat what's said as from the mouth of God--as it will be--and HE WILL BACK THAT AUTHORITY UP WITH SIGNS AND WONDERS FOLLOWING--both judgment and blessing.

16. There's going to be a LOT more of the earth swallowing folks up instantly . . . as well as a LOT more Ananias & Sapphira terminations.

17. And the Pope will have nothing to do with any of them--unless he's on the receiving end.

[Cletus.D.Yokel]

::: It seems that the two largest Lutheran “churches” in America have broken up, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA). :::

Dude! Where you been? That happened in 1988!

[marshmallow]

........obvious heterodox theology........

"Obvious" to whom and to what degree? And who decides?

I think that's the whole point being made here.

The author is not "ripping" another denomination. He's pointing out the absence of genuine authority which leaves groups and individuals to make up their own minds about what is "heterodox theology".

If the Catholic Church is wrong about what it teaches, as you suggest, then who is right? The Southern Baptists? The Methodists? The Jehovah's Witnesses? You? None of the above? All of the above?

[raygunfan]

outstanding, that has to be the most strawmen ive seen in one post in ages.....

[Cletus.D.Yokel]

To express fealty to a human “over-seer” such as the Pope or even a “synodical president” is anathema. Even Melancthon (a perpetual layman!) nailed the situation with the Smalkald Articles (The Pope as Anti-Christ).

Missouri has her issues but, at the local level, I would say that the LCMS - as she acquiesces to the early fathers - is providing a truer course than any denomination in today’s ecumenical field.

[bcsco]

This is the 2nd thread on this very topic (which, in fact, marshmallow posted). The other deals more directly with Benne's points. This OTOH, is just a Protestant bashing exercise. Nothing to see here.

[Quix]

Evidently you believe that

Holy Spirit became too old and feeble to manage

God’s Authority

in an ongoingly active, AUTHORITATIVE way

once Pentecost was over . . .

or after John ran out of ink with Revelation??

---

HINT, HOLY SPIRIT IS ALIVE AND WELL ON PLANET EARTH AND IN EVERY SUB-ATOMIC PARTICLE OF THE MULTIVERSE.

AND HE IS STILL distributing gifts AS HE WILL . . .

AND HE IS STILL anointing authority and withdrawing anointing of authority AS HE WILL.

[Secret Agent Man]

That’s the beauty of heterodox ideas. If it’s not supported in the bible, it’s heterodox.

Pointing out a heterodox idea doesn’t require one to say what denomination is right, declaring something to be heterodox one only has to compare it to the bible. It doesn’t matter what denomination it is if it gets something wrong. The objective standard is the Word of God.

And for the denominations who hold views that they can never be wrong because God wouldn’t let them, that’s not biblical either.

I really am not looking to get into a long winded antagonistic discussion here. The point is when you look at the bible and compare it to certain Roman doctrines that are deemed by Romanists to be irrefutable and anathema if you don’t believe them, they do not have the backing of Scripture, and the Roman church is in the same boat as many many other denominations that also teach and believe heterodox ideas.

With that we will probably agree to disagree, and we can just part from here.

[TheOldLady]

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[Unam Sanctam]

praying to saints — Do you believe in heaven and the communion of the saints in the Church? If they are in heaven and all are one in the Spirit, we can talk to them and ask them to pray for us to God, just as we can ask a living person on earth to pray for us. The saints are not gods.
deify Mary - The Catholic Church does not “deify” Mary. Like other saints, she is a creature of God, not a God, but she had and has an exceptional role in bringing Christ into the world and in bringing about his saving work, and her intercession in heaven is powerful with her divine Son.
priest not marrying - Saints John and Paul (and indeed Jesus himself) were unmarried. I guess we have to throw out half of the New Testament? Clerical celibacy and its honor and value go back a long way to the beginnings of the Church, and it is ahistorical to claim otherwise.
purgatory - St. Paul speaks of purification as by fire after death. Why does it not make sense that one should be purified before seeing the awesome face of God.
infallibility of the Pope - St. Peter is the rock upon which the Church was built with the apostolic college in union with him. The Holy Spirit is to guide the Church into all truth, as per New Testament. Infallibility of the Pope is limited to interpretation of Divine Revelation passed down in Scripture and Tradition and only relates to faith and morals. It is part of the infallibility of the Church in passing down the deposit of faith from the apostles.
no priesthood of the believer - au contraire, all who are baptised share in the general priesthood of the people of God who form part of the Body of Christ, our high priest. Nevertheless, Christ established a special ordained priesthood that has been carried down in the tradition of the Church from the beginning, starting with the Last Supper and the special ministry of the apostles as shown in the New Testament.
good works necessary to complete salvation - No, one is saved by faith through baptism, but after baptism, one can fall into mortal sin. I guess Protestants get to ignore all post-baptismal sin and are let off the hook. Simul justus et peccator is Luther’s term, I believe.

[Quix]

I found many wonderful Christians in WELS . . . in spite of their arrogant FELLOWSHIP nonsense.

I haven’t been that close to the other Lutheran groups.

Personally, I think the HEALTHY congregations of the Vineyard group as well as healthy Calvary Chapels are more spot on than many average denominations.

Calvary Chapels tend to be a bit stiffly managed for my taste but I think they have most of the essentials pretty well in hand.

I think for a while the Vineyard group managed to do well because new pastors had a lot of training and monitoring from the home church. At some point, that fell apart and I think in the end, even before he died, John Wimber took the organization out of being a formal denomination. I assume each church was on it’s own after that.

[bcsco]

The only times I’ve had issues with the LCMS is when its leaders have tried to draw it away from Biblical Doctrine (which is the history that Benne writes about). I haven’t experienced it in local LCMS parishes, but I have with much consternation in ELCA parishes. Our issues within the LCMS (which we’re struggling with at this time...looking into another congregation) have all had to do with cliques and control-freaks within the congregation.

I’m frankly happy the conservatives within the LCMS was able to purge the liberals from power. While that did sew the seeds of today’s ELCA problems (as Benne points out), that, IMO, was a blessing for the LCMS.

[Carl Vehse]

Philipp Melanchthon wrote the "Treatise on the Power and Primacy," which recognizes the pope as the Antichrist. That Treatise was officially approved in the meeting at Schmalkalden, Germany, and was considered as a sort of addendum to the Augsburg Confession.

The "Smalcald Articles" were written by Martin Luther and also recognized the pope as the Antichrist. While not officially approved at the Smalkalden meeting, the Smalcald Articles were later approved and eventually included as one of the Lutheran Symbols, or confessions of the Lutheran Church.

[Campion]

To express fealty to a human “over-seer” such as the Pope or even a “synodical president” is anathema.

Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. -- Hebrews 13:7

Is Hebrews anathema?

[Belteshazzar]

There’s nothing new in what you’ve posted; and in fact it is, embarrassingly, behind the times when it comes to what’s going on among the Lutherans today. That’s what happens when one reaches into the closet for some handy boilerplate.

The author’s argument boils down to this: authority has to be of a type that we humans readily see and understand. Authority must own the microphone and sound system as well as the bully pulpit in which it resides. Authority must have control of the bank account. Authority must hold the property deeds. But our Lord said to the Roman governor Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world.”

“We do not concede to the papists that they are the church, for they are not. Nor shall we pay any attention to what they command or forbid in the name of the church, for, thank God, a seven-year-old child knows what the church is, namely, holy believers and sheep who hear the voice of their Shepherd. (John 10:3) So children pray, “I believe in one holy Christian (Catholic) Church.” Its holiness does not consist of surplices, tonsures, albs, or other ceremonies of theirs which they have invented over and above the Holy Scriptures, but it consists of the Word of God and true faith.” — Smalcald Articles, Part III, Article XII.

Tuesday in the week of Misericordias Domini, otherwise known as Good Shepherd Sunday.

[bcsco]

Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. -- Hebrews 13:7

Is Hebrews anathema?

No, it's not. But there's a big difference between remembering those who have 'spoken the word of God to you' fondly, and expressing fealty to them. Our fealty is to God, not to man.

[marshmallow]

The author’s argument boils down to this: authority has to be of a type that we humans readily see and understand. Authority must own the microphone and sound system as well as the bully pulpit in which it resides. Authority must have control of the bank account. Authority must hold the property deeds. But our Lord said to the Roman governor Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world.”

I would say that this is a gross misunderstanding of the author's meaning. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it is the exact opposite of his meaning.

His essential point about authority is that is must be Divinely instituted authority and not of human making.

There's an enormous mental block about the whole issue of authority but someone will have it. Someone will be the court of last resort. It will either be eccelsial or personal but someone must render the definitive judgment.