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To: mas cerveza por favor

Nope.. there was no OFFICIAL canon until Trent..

Luther did not remove james from the canon .... Even up to the late 4th century, the book of James had not even been quoted in the west. Luther was not the only one that questioned it as inspired. but he never remove it

.Rome added to the OT at Trent..something they had NO AUTHORITY to do..

The OT belongs to the jews ... not Rome

The books Rome added

1) are not Christocentric and they do not claim for themselves what Rome claims for them
2) They were accepted as inspired by the jewish people to whom God entrusted them and with whom they originated
3) The jews reject them as part of their canon
4) They contain teachings that are inconsistent with the rest of the Bible and often contradict themselves
5)Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which is the language of the OT
6)They were not placed with the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the church

BTW Athanasios rejecter the North African provincial councils which added the books FOR LOCAL use..


32 posted on 05/04/2011 4:57:52 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
It appears your grasp of history rivals that of the Communist revisionists of the 20th Century who adapted the past to fit their ideas.The catholic canon existed in the 4th Century as most "Objective" historical texts would confirm. Visit your local library and inform yourself and do not persist in your unbelief.

Any such reputable objective historical tome, notwithstanding some self serving protestant revisionist source, would debunk your theory. Note the operative word is “Objective” a term that perhaps need further explanation.

43 posted on 05/04/2011 5:27:50 PM PDT by bronx2 (while Jesus is the Alpha /Omega He has given us rituals which you reject to obtain the graces as to)
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To: RnMomof7
Nope.. there was no OFFICIAL canon until Trent..

The 27 books of the New Testament were first authoritatively by St. Athanasios in 367:

Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament. These are, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Afterwards, the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles (called Catholic), seven, viz. of James, one; of Peter, two; of John, three; after these, one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen Epistles of Paul, written in this order. The first, to the Romans; then two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians; then to the Philippians; then to the Colossians; after these, two to the Thessalonians, and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John.

39'th Letter of Holy Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, on the Paschal festival

The Athanasius NT canon was officially recognized in the Council of Rome (382) and the Council of Trent (1545-1563).

Luther did not remove james from the canon

Okay. I was mistaken about Luther removing James, but

Luther placed the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation at the end of his translation and failed to note their page numbers in the index. He wrote a preface to James claiming it "contradicts Paul by teaching justification by works

Is James IN or OUT?

The OT belongs to the jews ... not Rome

The First Century Jewish council of Jamnia rejected Ester, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon, but Protestants as well as Rome include these books.

The seven deuterocanonical books in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox OT canons come from the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament. The Septuagint was used by the Apostles and Evangelists for the OT passages in the New Testament.

The King James Bible uses the Septuagint as the source for OT books, such as Isaiah, that include prophesies of Christ. Also, the original King James Bible includes the deuterocanonicals but American publishers took out these books to save on printing costs. The King James version published in England includes the deuterocanonicals from the Greek Septuagint.

52 posted on 05/04/2011 9:00:38 PM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: RnMomof7; Cronos
Nope.. there was no OFFICIAL canon until Trent..

There were previous councils that listed all the books that had been in use by the Church. This includes the Council of Florence which occurred a hundred years before Trent. Usually, the only time a council makes an "OFFICIAL" proclamation is when a teaching is challenged. Trent had to make the canon an "OFFICIAL" proclamation because of the so called Reformation trying to change the canon accepted by the Church for centuries.

Claiming that there was no unified canon in the Church until Trent's proclamation is simply a distortion of historical fact, at the best.

66 posted on 05/05/2011 4:36:52 AM PDT by Al Hitan
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To: RnMomof7; mas cerveza por favor; Al Hitan
rnmomof7 The OT belongs to the jews

And yet you don't realise that the Jewish canon was not closed until the Council of Jamnia in AD 90. Prior to that the Jews and then the Christians used the Septuagint, which guess what, contained these books

Besides, the Samaritans and the Sadducees both kept ONLY the Pentateuch and rejected the books of the Prophets etc. --> so do you reject Isiaih, Ezekiel etc. because it was rejected by these Jews?

Ethiopian Jews -- arguably the oldest untouched form of Jewry use the same canon with these 7 books

Even the earliest Christian books refer to these books:

The Didache (AD 70): "You shall not waver with regard to your decisions [Sir. 1:28]. Do not be someone who stretches out his hands to receive but withdraws them when it comes to giving [Sir. 4:31]"

And there are others, many other references.

67 posted on 05/05/2011 6:19:45 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: RnMomof7; mas cerveza por favor; Al Hitan
Let's take your points:

  1. Christocentric: is Obadiah Christocentric? Arguably Maccabees with its story of the Jews being saved is as Christocentric as Obadiah or Judges.

  2. Yes, the 7 books in question were accepted as inspired by Jews and hence in the Septuagint as well as used by Ethiopian Jews

  3. No, the Pharisees in AD 90 rejected them as part of the drive to eradicate the Christian sect. The Sadducees, Samaritans rejected all the Prophets too -- do you consider that good? Or would you follow the Pharisees? Ethiopian Jews never rejected these books, so hence, your point 3 is wrong

  4. No, they do not contain any teachings contrary to the rest of the Bible or even the OT -- if you think so, tell us and tell the Ethiopian Jews who still jeep these

  5. Where exactly do you get that they were not in Hebrew? Do you think the Maccabees would write in Greek, the language of their arch-enemy?

  6. Yes -- check the references in the Didache -- now if you want to contradict Apostolic Age early Christians and set up your own religion, ok...

68 posted on 05/05/2011 6:29:07 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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